Cash Games Feedback

[robyong]

Am in Liverpool airport atm will reply in detail tomorrow. Gonna get that dessert!!

Cheers James, You and Neil Giblin are 2 players that come to mind when I'm discussing poker eco systems.

- the club/the winning players/losing players need to 'balance', the club takes a rake to breakeven (NOT to make a profit), pros need to earn a living and losing players need not pay too much for their hobby AND new cash game players need to be generated to replace the losing players, that's why the balance of cash games, rake, levels, straddles needs to be right.

- You mentioned in your post on Alex 's blog that the rake was too high on £2 £5, 5% with a £10 cap rakes £135 per hr before the costs of free food and drink -  what can DTD take out of that game to keep the balance right, is there a calculation?

- session fees versus rake, all casino operators want to move to a rake model that takes the same as session fees but without the disruption of asking players for cash every 30 mins.

- 8 handed or 9 handed cash games, what do players want and is there an inbuilt edge to pros dealing the game 8 handed?

[Cf]

The rake was one of the reasons I didn't play cash when I was down at DTD a month ago. I assumed it was still 10% which I always found to be a killer.

I think cash inherently plays bigger than tournaments. I've seen places offer 25p/50p or 50p/50p but never really seen such a game take off.

I think the lowest you can realistically do is 50p/£1 (or £1/£1) with no straddles allowed. I'd also have a 50p/£1 running with 1 straddle allowed. People playing at this level generally don't want the game to be running too big. Do the same with £1/£2 and you have:

50p/£1 - no straddles
50p/£1 - 1 straddle
£1/£2 - no straddles
£1/£2 - 1 straddle

There's a slight overlap between the middle two there but the difference is that players of course have the option of not straddling which changes the game dynamic a bit. Catering to each level of play hopefully means people won't sit in the lower games and make them too big.

[paulhouk03]

The 25 p 25p game in g  manchester is the most popular game
During the weekday sometimes gets 2 tables maybe 3 but it kind of killed the 50p 1£ game

[Acidmouse]

Me and a few friends were tempted to come play cash games a while ago but tbh the regulars seemed more than willing to discuss on a forum taking cash off any passing trade they got in an unappealing manner.

The final nail was the post about someone who was being mentored and got stung by one of them. Don't sound great to me. Rather stick in Leeds and have my money taken from me quietly.

[tight4better]

My   from a 50/1 1/1 DTD grinder.

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)

With the Rake at Gala and Alea at 50/1 at 5% now I think it's time for DTD to bring back people who are playing elsewhere for cheaper rake and get in line with 5% at the lower limits, maybe increase the max rake to £7/8 to make up for the % loss, players might not mind that (I wouldn't personally, 10% rake is stopping me playing 1/1 at dtd currently, as well as fishy issues  )

2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)

Seems perfectly fine, never saw people waiting for something that wasn't available, if 8 people turn up wanting £5/5 Stud Hi I'm sure they'd find a dealer and a game would start immediately. Nothing wrong with DTD on this point.


3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)

Keep the 50/1 no straddles, as a beginners game ONLY if you want that sort of table. 1/1 and everything above let people straddle, if you're worried the straddle making the game crazy, make sure everyone is ok with doubles/triples however I don't see more dead money being in a pot much of an issue to 90% of the playerbase. The argument of increasing the blinds is a poor one because not everyone at a table straddles and it's OPTIONAL, meaning if you want to play deeper stacked you can refuse, that's not an option for you if you play higher for the entire session.

4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)

Really see no issues here anymore, before when the 50/1 was changed to 100 MAX this was a huge problem for people who wanted to sit deep stacked without committing £400/500 on one bullet.

5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)

Don't see why this should be any sort of issue, if any issues arouse let the floor use their discretion or ask the table if it's okay.

6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)

Can I ask why this isn't allowed? Should 100% be allowed, let's people get back straight the way without having to worry about posting UTG or w/e

7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games)

There's a lot of confusion regarding this rule, most dealers I've asked say this isn't allowed at ANY limit, and I knew this happened though I never saw it at 50/1 1/1. In my opinion it should be allowed providing both/all players agree and the dealers understand how it works.

To people who say this doesn't happen anywhere else, Gala allow you to run it twice, but rake both pots (Which works out at 10%, same as DTD's current rake). I've also ran it twice at other venues.

8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)

Allow it, if it's getting too much, dealer discretion to not allow it.

9. Spectators in the cash game area

My 2p, sitting behind players = no. Going up for a chat with a friend who's on a table = Yes.

10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players

People love long sessions. The more hours the better for everyone. Rake/Tips.

11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)[/b]

Keep this, same rules as now, soft drinks/tea/coffee.

12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)

I think people would love a BBJ, some kind of visible running total on a monitor would be great for people to see how much they could win from losing (Time paradox)

13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players

Agree, apart from letting Goulder play PLO to keep Belton's supply of Hollister incoming.

14. Rake on split pots (we rake)

Very split on this decision. I personally wouldn't but I don't know what percentage of takings work out from split pots. I imagine in DC games this is more of an issue than Hold'Em or Omaha Hi.

[SuuPRlim]

Lil Dave, thanks for taking the time to analyse each point pal, will let you know when we start arranging some decent PLO games, I will have a LOT more time after St Kitts, it will me ("token businessmen fish"), Devilfish and a few other 'old' players, regular PLO or ROE, not 'silly' stakes, just a regular fun game. Spread the word that their is gonna be a game starting but only to players that are rolled to play say £10-£10-£25 size, I really don't see the reason to have a straddle in this game (I am anit-straddle generally in cash games even though im the worst for doing double/triple straddles!). Oh -  can you also PR St Kitts as much as you can on the blog please mate, we are gonna have a fun time over there for sure.

Sure will do, the good people of the DVLA have once more deemed me fit to operate a motor car so i'll have way less tilt getting around soon Those games at last one were good fun. Like the sound of third blind and no straddling, In the vegas they often run $10/$20/$40 (optional $80) instead of $25/$50 it defo runs more than 20% smaller but it's a really nice sized game and plays out a lot nicer than $25/$50, I've found a LOT more tourists play 10/20/40 than 25/50, sometimes even when it's not summer they can have 2-3 10/20/40 tables but can barely think of a single time I've seen more than 1 25/50 table in the bellagio. It's mostly down to the chips they use as well, 10/20/40 uses mostly $20 chips whereas 25/50 mostly $25 chips and that DEFO makes the game play bigger.

So like £5/£10/£20 with an optional £40 if you wanted for the kind of players that would be interested I think would make a really nice game. whatever i'll come down provided ofc, there is a least one token businessmen who is playing splashy

Will plug St. Kitts ofc, really looking forward to it.

[NEWY]

Would it be poss to offer tables with straddles allowed and tables where straddles would not be allowed then let the players decide what they want? After a few sessions I am sure it woulkd become clear what people really want. Personally I think straddles change the game unfairly for those who are not as rolled as others. If i sit at £1-£2 game that is what I would like to play.... not a £1-£2-£4-£8. . Even jus 1 straddle to £4 makes a huge difference. Online games dont straddle so why should live. Anyone wishing to play a £4 bb should jus move up to a bigger game... Simples <3 dtd

[ruud]

As someone who has played a fair bit of 50p/£1 recently at DTD, thought I'd add a couple of thoughts. Hopefully I am typical 50/1 player so my views will have a little credence.

With the rake, I think 5% should also be feasible at DTD, I have played recently elsewhere where 5% was standard.

To those people suggesting getting rid of the 50/1 game, and just go to 1/1. I would disagree. What I love about the 50/1is that I can buy in for the Max, and it is an amount I am prepared to lose that night. If I bought in for £250 to play in the 1/1, because I like to have the max when I start, I would feel uncomftable with how much of my roll I was exposing. I think these views are pretty common, and it is important that DTD continue to cater for all. I think the current spread of games is close to bang on.

I would like to see a 50/1 game of PLO or ROE if possible, giving players like me the chance to play these games.

Straddling has no place in 50/1 imho, just makes the game too big too quickly.

Also, a lot of 50/1 players are guys who are rec players, they watch poker on TV, they see things like run it twice, and they'd like to do it. This rule is so poorly enforced, that it should just be made a blanket 'yes' imho.

Finally, raking split pots. Selflishly I say no, but would be interested to know the impact a decision like this would make on DTD.

[Cf]

When I think of 1/1 I consider it to be the same game as .50/1 except none of the fiddly 50p chips. Do DTD run a seperate 1/1 game with higher caps?

I don't understand why a casino wouldn't rake a split pot.

[ruud]

50/1 is £100 max, 1/1 is £250 max. Straddle allowed on 1/1. Massive difference

[titaniumbean]

25p 50p optional £1 straddle £100 max as the smallest game?!

[paulhouk03]

Have you considered doing a stt promo?

[Cf]

50/1 is £100 max, 1/1 is £250 max. Straddle allowed on 1/1. Massive difference

Fair enough. My local casino used to do .50/1 but changed it to 1/1 with straddle rules etc being the same as they used to be. The only effect was to remove the 50p chips.

[cambridgealex]

I think it's spot on with regards to most of the points - one thing I'd say about max buyins- if you were ever to cap the 1/2 again, can there please be clause where you can buyin for is it half the biggest stack that they'd elsewhere? That's a good rule imo.

Buythebutton, fine why not. Run it twice - just in uncapped games imo (but that's kinda selfish I realise).

Closing times- 3am still seems too early, 4am imo and 5am on weekends. I wonder what effect this has on the ecosystem though as dave clearly thinks 2am is better for the long run health of the games.

Food and drinks- fine as it is, nice to get a free meal for the VIP games 2/5+ though.

There should be some sort of bad beat jackpot or bonus scheme. I think everyone who plays 20hrs or more of cash should all be entered into the same free roll comp with £x gtd paying a decent amount of the field, not top heavy, turbo, on a weeknight, no reward for playing 100hrs rather than 25- just trying to get more people playing the odd night rather than rewarding the regs. This is the only point I feel really strong about.

Raking split pots / rake in general - fine, do what you have to do to cover costs. But I think in general there needs to be a recognition that each cash game player rakes many many times more per night than tournament players (10x, 15x even) so it's great to see the imbalance being address.

[SuuPRlim]

Closing times- 3am still seems too early, 4am imo and 5am on weekends. I wonder what effect this has on the ecosystem though as dave clearly thinks 2am is better for the long run health of the games.

Yh I mean I'm personally with you on this for the most part - I like playing through till much later but, imo, I think it's one of the things that puts people off poker, coming in far to late, being tired next day, getting a bit of grief from the missus etc if the latest they could play till on a weekday when people have jobs/school-runs, morning responsibilities was say 2am then i think you get a bit more longevity from each player. Also it kind of "caps" losses a little bit as someone isn't going to get steamed up at 12.30am then spend the next 4hours going off for 3x what he was comfortable losing. People losing money slower in the games is GOOD for the long term health of the game because it helps sustain the game. That;s just what I think, happy to be persuaded otherwise on this point.