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Author Topic: Cash Games Feedback  (Read 16923 times)
robyong
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« on: September 30, 2012, 10:54:45 PM »

Hi,

There has been an interesting thread on Alex's diary about DTD cash games, if anyone has any further feedback or suggestions, please stick them on this thread, his blog has become a little "DTD - fied" as can often happen on here as players are passionate, here are a few cash game topics that come to mind;

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)
2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)
3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)
4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)
5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)
6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)
7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games)
8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)
9. Spectators in the cash game area
10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players
11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)
12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)
13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players Smiley Smiley Smiley
14. Rake on split pots (we rake)

Here is the Vic and DTD Cash game links, I have pasted the pages as best I can at the bottom on this post. I am fairly sure that The Vic and DTD are the largest cash game operators in the UK by some distance, so there is a comparision below.

http://www.dusktilldawncasinonottingham.com/cashgames.php
http://www.grosvenorvictoriacasino.com/poker-room/cash-games.aspx

Any help appreciated, seems like we need to make some tweaks, and with a fresh start with appointing Tom Cresswell as Cash Game Manager, seems like now is a good time. we cant JUST blame team eureka for killing our the £1-£2 games! (or can we Smiley)

A James Keys "version of our cash games web page" would be GREAT.

Happy to make any changes that are for the benefit of players and the Club - I am a cash game player myself, I want DTD to be the best place for cash games, not just tournaments, I think it's fair to say we have been VERY tournament focussed over the last 5 years.

Cheers Rob

DTD CASH GAMES INFOMATION

Dusk Till Dawn provides cash games for all levels of poker players:

Games Available   Min - Max buy-in   Rake %   Rake Cap
NL £0.50 / £1   £20 - £100 (No Straddle)   10%   £5
NL £1 / £1   £50 - £250   10%   £5
NL £1 / £2   £200 - No Max   5%   £10
NL £2 / £5   £500 - No Max   5%   £10
NL £5 / £10   £1,000 - No Max   5%   £10
PLO £1 / £1   £50 - £250 Cap   10%   £5
PLO £2 / £2   £200 - No Max   5%   £10
PLO £5 / £5   £500 - No Max   5%   £10

Dealer's Choice / Round of Each available on Request
If a table gets short handed the following rake caps will apply:
4 players - £4 cap
3 players or less - £3 cap
2 players - £2 cap

More Information
On all games no matter what betting takes place NO FLOP = NO RAKE
If you have any questions about our Cash Games please email Tom Cresswell, Cash Game Manager - tom@dusktilldawnpoker.com

THE VIC - CASH GAMES INFORMATION

Cash games take place daily in the poker room at 'The Vic', with Hold'em, Omaha and other varieties of poker taking place 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. A range of stakes are available

Game Type   Blinds   Min-Max Buy-In   Charge
NLH   £1-£1   £40-£200   Rake 10% £5 cap
NLH   £1-£2   £80-£400   Rake 5% £10 cap
NLH   £1-£3   £120-£1000   Rake 5% £10 cap
NLH   £2-£5   £200-£2500   £7 half hourly charge
NLH   £5-£10   £400 no max   £9 half hourly charge
NLH   £10-£25   £1000 no max   £12.50 half hourly charge
NLH   £25-£50   £2000 no max   £15 half hourly charge
NLH   £50-£100   £5000 no max   £17.50 half hourly charge
PLO   £1-£2   £80-£400   Rake 5% £10 cap
PLO   £1-£3   £120 no max   Rake 5% £10 cap
PLO   £2-£5   £200 no max   £7 half hourly charge
PLO   £5-£10   £400 no max   £9 half hourly charge
PLO   £10-£25   £1000 no max   £12.50 half hourly charge
PLO   £25-£50   £2000 no max   £15 half hourly charge
Mixed PL
(Dealer's Choice)   £1-£3   £120 no max   £6 half hourly charge
Mixed PL
(Dealer's Choice)   £2-£5   £200 no max   £7 half hourly charge
Mixed PL
(Dealer's Choice)   £5-£10   £400 no max   £9 half hourly charge
Mixed Limit (Dealer's Choice)   Limits of £10 and £20   £100 no max   £7 half hourly charge
Mixed Limit
(Dealer's Choice)   Limits of £75 and £150   £750 no max   £12.50 half hourly charge
More games and different stakes are available.

Some of the games available on the Mixed games include: Hold'em, Omaha, 7 card Stud, Lowball, Razz, Badugi, Ace to 5 triple draw, 2 to 7 triple draw, Omaha hi-lo, 7 card stud hi-lo, Superstud.


« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 02:23:23 AM by robyong » Logged
scotty77
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« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2012, 11:24:07 PM »

3.  While I do like a straddled game and sometimes encourage for it to go round I think its prob for the best that they are limited to just 1 as they do get a bit crazy sometimes.

4.  I only really play 1/2 there and while I am not bothered by having no cap, there are a lot of people who are.  Last time I played cash at DTD a new table was opened and 3 regs bought in for at least a grand each and heard 1 guy moan about it.  Personally I'd like a 500 cap.

7/8/9 I am a semi-reg at DTD and have noticed that there is massive inconsistency on these 3 points.  If it's a reg that asks/is in the area then more often then not then it will happen.  Non reg and it won't.  Again none of these points bother me one bit but to some random/recreational player then these could get tilting.  At the last deepstack a reg was having a 10 min convo with 2 of his mates while playing cash and not a word was said.  Random guy then had a mate come to the rail and within 30 seconds there was a non spectators call over the speaker system. Random guy then commented various times about the favouritism shown to the reg players.

Of course any venue in the UK suffers the same kind of criticism from 'non' regs so its nothing new but  I think as DTD excels in just about every other way then surely you guys can come up with something to combat it, especially as you have so many major events happening there basically every weekend across all levels of the UK poker scene.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

How about once an hour on all cash games you have a 'DTD' pot where the winner of said pot got some kind of free gift.  Free DTD clothing/free food voucher/a golden chip for the next major tournie/free online sat entries etc.  Nothing of any great value just a little sweetener.  I always find it incred how much value people place on a poker related baseball cap.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Having said that of course the cash game playing experience at DTD is so far ahead of anywhere in the country its incred.  Keep up the good work!

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robyong
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« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2012, 11:29:11 PM »

that's good feedback Scott, telling me what YOU actually want is most important, dont worry about knocking the Club, we have won enuf bloody awards to know we are not total shite, so give us a bit of criticism on our Cash Game pleases, if you wanna say 'DTD, you are a bunch of robbin' bastards charging x', tell me! I know we are in a recession but we have still got to try and give players what they want.

And Neil Giblin and James Keys - can you guys spare 10 mins of your time and each do me new version of our @cash games and limits" web page and post in on here? Free desert as a price for your consultancy? In you 2 I trust.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 11:39:12 PM by robyong » Logged
jgcblack
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« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2012, 11:37:02 PM »

Hi,

There has been an interesting thread on Alex's diary about DTD cash games, if anyone has any further feedback or suggestions, please stick them on this thread, his blog has become a little "DTD - fied" as can often happen on here as players are passionate, here are a few cash game topics that come to mind;

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)
2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)
3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)
4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)
5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)
6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)
7. Run is twice (only allowed in uncapped games)
8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)
9. Spectators in the cash game area
10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players
11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)
12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)
13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players Smiley Smiley Smiley


My Two Clubs as a recreational player trying to improve to professional level.

I've played in your 'big' 1/2 games and enjoyed them a lot, but I like others think they are some if not the toughest in the UK I've seen.

1. Make it as cheap as you can I guess.. I understand players prefer session @ 2/5 and above..
2. Games you offer are fine..
3. I like them, but it can change the game completely... possibly one/ two, or unlimited if it doesn't 'ruin' the game... but that would be upto Tom to maintain a 'recreational game'.
4. 50bb- 2/300bb is fine, little need for anything else imo
5. Potentially up to the 'biggest stack' worth thinking about a % of the biggest stack maybe (50-90%)
6. Need to allow this, tilts me so hard..
7. Not allowed anywhere else, not sure why it is allowed @ dtd?
8. Should never be allowed, dealers need to be strict.
9. Difficult one, i think it needs to be up to the dealer as to whether its interfering with 'his/her' game..??
10. Unless there is a good reason I think they should be allowed to stay as long as they like... there has to be a way to have a 'reduced' opening staff requirement if there is only a couple of cash games going..
11. All non alcoholics need to be free obv.. I don't play high enough to know about other comp'ing
12. No bad beat, unsure of rake races...
13. Finding ways to 'limit' how reg heavy a table gets is an idea... but I detest 'The Empire' for stopping 'friends' being on the same table


Hope it helps... would be great to have a constant and consistent game for when people like me who live further away to be able to guarantee when we come up for tournaments or a 'weekend'.

Jb


(also if you do want a word with me, I'm more than happy.  Just pm me.)
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robyong
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2012, 11:40:38 PM »

Thanks John Black. Dont forget you need to come and have a chat/drink with me when your next in the club! I heard you were there on Saturday but i was away Smiley
« Last Edit: September 30, 2012, 11:42:51 PM by robyong » Logged
scotty77
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2012, 11:43:20 PM »

that's good feedback Scott, telling me what YOU actually want is most important, dont worry about knocking the Club, we have won enuf bloody awards to know we are not total shite, so give us a bit of criticism on our Cash Game pleases, if you wanna say 'DTD, you are a bunch of robbin' bastards charging x', tell me! I know we are in a recession but we have still got to try and give players what they want.

Neil Giblin andJames Keys - do me a new web page please

I play live cash so infrequently at DTD to really have a say in the rake.  

DTD provide the best service in the UK and as I am used to London based venues for the majority of my live cash play then I am sure you know this too.

I will happily play cash at DTD anytime that I am there.  I am a guy who makes my living out of poker tho and from the posts on blonde lately tho whats lacking at the moment is the random recreational players.  From my (fairly limited sample) own experience during the last year or so I have found the best games to be in the backroom games or ones held in venues where their legality is in a grey area and away from the casinos.
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2012, 11:46:36 PM »

Thanks John Black. Dont forget you need to come and have a chat/drink with me when your next in the club! I heard you were there on Saturday but i was away Smiley

Like I said Rob, more than happy.. none of it was meant to offend.  I spoke to Nicola again to make sure she was ok.

I was planning on being up for this weekends deepstack but I am now unable to play Day2.  Then I'm away for a while with work.

Next visit should be the Dec deepstack, see you then.

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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2012, 11:49:45 PM »

- Loyalty cash points card

- Free tea/coffee/soft drinks

- Swivvely chairs option (think this would be a good thing to add)

- More change for dealers, not played cash all that often, but I think both times there has been shortage for change with dealer and players

- FPP's? Although I think there is some sort of bonus already in place?
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scotty77
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2012, 11:53:19 PM »

One thing that I will say is that with a lot of promotions on cash games, usually they are gonna be aimed at the 'winning' players in the game.

I think the last promo that DTD did was to reward XYZ hours of cash game play with tournie entry seats.  I think that while these kind of promotions serve a purpose, as a game will be more likely to start/continue with regs grinding these hours, they don't actually encourage a random/recreational player to play more as they wouldn't have any realistic chance of getting a 1k Monte Carlo seat without it costing them ~K to do so.

So any new promos should be on a level playing field (everyone who play 20 hours of cash at DTD in a month and go into a draw for a free XYZ seat) or they should be promos where the 'normal' players have a chance to attain.

For too long all of the poker industry has actually rewarded the people who need the rewards the least.
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2012, 12:12:30 AM »

Thanks John Black. Dont forget you need to come and have a chat/drink with me when your next in the club! I heard you were there on Saturday but i was away Smiley

Like I said Rob, more than happy.. none of it was meant to offend.  I spoke to Nicola again to make sure she was ok.

I was planning on being up for this weekends deepstack but I am now unable to play Day2.  Then I'm away for a while with work.

Next visit should be the Dec deepstack, see you then.


buck buck buck buckeeerrrrrkkkk Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2012, 12:16:46 AM »

I’m not keeping in line with the bullet points but will make my own

1.   Session charges on 2-5 and above NLH and 1-3 and above PLO (Not sure about DC)
2.   Spectators are fine but should be limited, people need to understand that they are in a casino
3.   Spread – Personally I think the .50/1 should be killed and replaced with 1-1 and above, my reasons are the following
               a.   People that play .50/1 will just move up
               b.   Players will take it more seriously
               c.   The rake is the same as 1/1 so will work out cheaper
               d.   I hate those white .50p chips

4.   Straddles – Should be allowed but limited on all tables, maybe a double straddle limit meaning the games don’t go to crazy
5.   Club should open earlier for Cash and close later (not sure if that would be a good business decision to begin with
6.   Feeder tables and more control of the cash game area . Have feeder tables into games that have a high risk of dying, like the PLO and 1-2 and above, plus not allowing players to move from table to table without some sort of order
7.      Min and max buy-in needs to be looked at and in line with national practice, 50bb to maybe 250bb or half the big stack whichever is more
8.   Having a monthly loyalty freeroll like the Vic

That’s all for now…
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 01:20:07 AM by BangBang » Logged

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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2012, 12:44:38 AM »

Rob, I have posted about this only tonight on Alex's page, but seeing as you have asked, and I applaud you for doing so, here are the changes I would like to see for the cash games at DTD.

The rake is too high, although the flip side to this is that generally only winning players get annoyed by this. I know you have tried to do rake free at the beginning of the night, and have also done rake reductions for short handed tables. These were good ideas and I'd like to see them back.
Ten percent, even though it's capped, is a massive chunk of every pot, especially when in reality most players' edges are smaller than they think. Personally I'd rather pay less rake and have to pay for coffee. I've never understood why poker players feel they have a divine right to a free cuppa anyway.

An unlimited buy in on a £1/£2 is a total farce. The buy ins have to be capped to retain the integrity of the description you have of the game. You are mis-selling the game at the moment and it's no wonder people have had enough. I'm surprised it's taken this long to be honest for this thread to come up.

The dealers are tired and fed up. It is good that they are rotated regularly but a lot of them complain about not getting a break, and I'm pretty sure they are not trained as thoroughly as they used to be. The turnover of dealers is quite remarkable and if it isn't a concern to management it should be.
There are very few dealers left who have the table under control and this is as important a skill as being able to shuffle properly and keep track of the pot.

The dealers aren't getting as many tips as the heyday of when you opened but it's not just because the players are tighter - the rake has made a difference, but really a lot of the time the dealers are so down in the dumps the players just don't feel like it.

Please bring back 9 seated tables, it is so annoying to be waiting for a seat when you are the ninth person available and the list for a new table isn't big enough yet.

Equally irritating is this 50p not counting in all-ins - I always feel like saying "I'm not quite all-in" but have always resisted the temptation. The only purpose it seems to serve is to guarantee the dealer a measly, insulting tip when a player loses his stack. If you hate 50ps so much, just remove them. If it's easier maths you want just make the game a £1/£1 game - most people complete from the small blind anyway.

Straddling is a tricky one - it has no place in the 50/£1 game and I'm not sure it does even in a genuine £1/£2 game but when you go higher it's probably OK as players at the higher buy ins generally like to gamble. For a tighter player like me they can be a godsend really because most players straddle so poorly and it's more dead money in the pot but of course it just makes the game bigger than advertised so perhaps it should just be removed altogether. I certainly wouldn't miss it. But if you are going to offer it you need an equal table that doesn't have it.

Promotions wise, the hours played for tournament buy-ins was well intended but was never going to last so please don't try that again. It would be better to do a royal flush jackpot or something - how about putting aside all those dead 50ps for that. It might not seem much but it adds a little something for the player. It's funny how shortchanged you feel when you get a Royal Flush and win about a £20 pot...

A bad beat jackpot is a bit naff really but if it can be done online, why not at DTD? You'd be surprised how many people believe they run so bad they are bound to win that one day.

Anyway, only a few ideas and nothing revolutionary but the gist of it is keep the games as advertised and for that you need a buy-in cap and to remove straddles, and look after the dealers more.



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« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2012, 04:18:18 AM »

Hi Rob!

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)

I personally don't care, and I'm someone who prolly should, so If I don't newer players prolly won't either. I'd just go with what is commercially more viable for DTD personally here

2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)

A good range imo, but you're always happy to offer diff games, personally would like to see more reg PLO and DC but w/e - maybe always have lists ready so people interested are more encouraged to mention it - although you prolly already do this.

3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)

The rule in Vegas is 1 straddle allowed, but a double/treble LIVE straddle can be put on if no1 at the table objects, the dealer has to ask the table each hand if there are objections. You could also allow missisippi straddles as that makes the games better imo, but DOES make them bigger which is potentially not what you want.

4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)

Personally I've never really understood why people are overly bothered about this

5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)

I think the players in the game SHOULD be allowed to request an increase in the minimum buyin, so everyone at the table agrees the buyin is increased form £200 to £500 or w/e and that is the rule

6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)

Can't think of a single good reason not to allow this? Means people don't have to sit and wait? Should defo allow it, unless you tell me why you currently dont as I imagine you have a reason

7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games)

Players should be allowed to run it twice, only twice though not 3/4/5 times or w/e, people like running it twice and it barely slows the game down AT ALL providing the dealer understands the concept

8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)

Should 100% be allowed, Rabbit hunting is great for the game, only miserable moody people object to it imo Wink defo have dealer descretion though where if someone is asking for a rabbit EVERY hand they get told to chill out

9. Spectators in the cash game area

I don't like too much if I'm playing big people knowing i'm going to have £xk on me etc, but more of an issue in somewhere like Vegas/the vic I dont think this matter too much at DTD because you have to walk to the cash desk anyways so people can just see you cashing out. People wanna spectate let them spectate don't see a problem.

10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players

Early(ish) closing imo. I personally love 20hour degen sessions playing with the same people, but most rec players have jobs or responsibilities nnext day but people get stuck/or big winner etc and dont wanna quit, force everyone to leave at 2am on weekdays for sure will be way better for the games imo

11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)

Very nice Smiley I'd be surprised if you could afford to give out comps to all the games? Don't think you really need to, maybe free soft drinks would be a nice gesture.

12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)

BBJ's always very popular, think rake races are a bad idea personally a pain to monitor and mostly benefit the regs who are already going to play

13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players Smiley Smiley Smiley

100%, speshly as with my record there I'll be allowed in for many years Cheesy

14. Rake on split pots (we rake)

Rake split pots if you want, and barr all the shameful nits who moan it's £2-£5 do they wanna try pay the electricity bills each month?


Hope it's useful, see you in St. Kitts Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2012, 04:25:03 AM »

Lil Dave, thanks for taking the time to analyse each point pal, will let you know when we start arranging some decent PLO games, I will have a LOT more time after St Kitts, it will me ("token businessmen fish"), Devilfish and a few other 'old' players, regular PLO or ROE, not 'silly' stakes, just a regular fun game. Spread the word that their is gonna be a game starting but only to players that are rolled to play say £10-£10-£25 size, I really don't see the reason to have a straddle in this game (I am anit-straddle generally in cash games even though im the worst for doing double/triple straddles!). Oh -  can you also PR St Kitts as much as you can on the blog please mate, we are gonna have a fun time over there for sure.


Pyso, thats some good solid feedback, no problem with anything you've wrote, we need to get better in this area. Just one point, our rake has become lower and lower, its now at its lowest average per hour since the club opened. For example, even the £1-£2 uncapped Team Eureka game only rakes £88 average per hour at 5% at £10 cap. What would u suggest we rake the lower games?

Bankbang, I am really keen on a resticted no straddle beginners game, if we did get rid of the £50-£1 and just had £1-£1, I would still want a beginners/novice cash game, even if was break-even for the club. We have been doing 50p-50p PLO on wednesday nights and i really like seeing player getting involved in cash game for little risk. however I get your point, they are a little close although the no straddle makes a different on the £50-£1 game, needs a little thought, as I said, im anti-straddle generally, id rather have 3 blinds or just up the game level.

Cheers Rob
« Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 04:44:23 AM by robyong » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2012, 05:13:14 AM »

Am in Liverpool airport atm will reply in detail tomorrow. Gonna get that dessert!!
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