Cash Games Feedback

[cambridgealex]

I'm going to start trending the term "non-pros" and see if I can get it to stick.

Nice term

Will work for loads of pros I know.

Don't geddit?

[George2Loose]

Why not just use recs?

[Marky147]

Could just not label them as anything, start trending  'some players will do/like to do x and some will do/like to do y', or variations of could work when you need to refer to different situations that crop up, everyone will know what you mean anyway and nobody needs to be labelled as such.

Probably talking bollocks, but it made sense to this Non-Pro/Fish while I was reading

[Gazza]

I'm going to start trending the term "non-pros" and see if I can get it to stick.

Nice term

Will work for loads of pros I know.

Don't geddit?

Players who make a living from the game but don't act professionally?

[skolsuper]

1. Rake V Session Fees AND Charge (DTD rake only)
I get the feeling you're more asking what works to keep the games healthy rather than what people want. If my recollection of your figures for gross rake per table per hour are accurate (can't find the post atm but iirc it was something like £90 for £1/2 and £135 for £2/5), then on the face of it they seem similar to the  £14ppph for £2/5 in the Vic and ought to be competitive. However with your tables being 8 handed max that means that the cost per player will be a little bit higher on average, and the main problem with rake vs session fees is that loose players pay much more than nits. At the same time as incentivising tight play (bad for the game), it increases the attrition rate of loose and bad players even if they don't notice, and over time the game will tighten up as the loose-bad players fall by the wayside faster than the tight-bad players. Tight games are less entertaining than loose games so people playing for fun will be slightly less likely to spend their free time there and it's a downward spiral. Also the no flop no drop rule incentivises the aggressive preflop play that Stu has been banging on about lately.
2. Levels of games on offer (we spread 50p-£1 +)
All these lower and lower games is a race to the bottom imo and doesn't benefit operators as a whole. Seems to me like the 50p/£1 is a good beginner-at-cash game, people who are more beginner than that have beginner tourns to start out in.
3. Straddles allowed/ limited (we dont allow straddles on 50-£1)
Seems like a good policy, mostly I think players should be allowed to decide but where there are beginners who might not speak up for themselves they should be allowed to play a small game without feeling pressured into gambling bigger than they want to.
4. Min/Max buy-ins at start of game (varies on game)
No limit games should always have a max buyin imho, but can see why the a 'highest game running' rule would be a good idea.
5. Max buy in when game has been running (doesnt change at DTD)
Keep this the same imo. I don't understand people who have problems with max buyins and "not being able to get their money back". Aside from the "one long session" arguments, I don't see how it's fair that someone who wins a 4 buyin stack over 3 hands has to be able to lose it in one. If I were playing at my upper limit, I would be very tempted to rack up and leave if the regular I just stacked twice was allowed to buy in for 3x max in order to cover my stack. Half-biggest stack is less extreme but morally still the same imo.
6. Buy the button (not allowed in DTD)
7. Run it twice (only allowed in uncapped games)
8. Rabitt hunting (not allowed I think, erm...)
9. Spectators in the cash game area
10. Opening/Closing times for kicking out cash game players
11. Complementories - food and drink DTD does free soft and hot drinks/ some food compted on £2-£5 + games)
12. Rake Races, Bad beat jackpots (weve not tried them)
Not much of a fan of these personally but I think they work pretty well at getting fish in the game. It's probably something that would work at 50p/£1 but I wouldn't want it imposed in my games.
13. Barring Team Eureaka / Winning players
I know this is a joke but behind every joke there is a grain of truth. I can see why there is a temptation for operators to try something like this to add longevity to games, but wherever it has been tried it has had the opposite effect, probably because it looks to new players like a lose:lose proposition, either you lose or you get banned. Also, most people think they're winners, so expect to fall foul of any rule against winners, and probably would be offended if they didn't.
14. Rake on split pots (we rake)
Not a problem in time games...

For the reasons above and from the points I made in my last post about uplifting the winningest players at a level, my suggestion would be to move to a session fees model for £2/5 and above. It would be nice if we could go back to the days where I used to pay £5 per hr for £5/5 plh in Aspers Newcastle (people still complained obv), but being realistic I would say that in Nottingham you probably need to be charging a little less than in central London so something like £6 per person per half-hour would be a good level for £2/5, and £8 for £5/£10+.

[cambridgealex]

Could just not label them as anything, start trending  'some players will do/like to do x and some will do/like to do y', or variations of could work when you need to refer to different situations that crop up, everyone will know what you mean anyway and nobody needs to be labelled as such.

Probably talking bollocks, but it made sense to this Non-Pro/Fish while I was reading

Political correctness gone mad.

Fish is offensive I agree but other terms such as recreational, amateur, inexperienced, non-professional should all be fine yet after x time of their usage being acceptable, people decide it's offensive and we have to find another word.

I think the context is important to be respectful, then it's not really that important which word you use, so long as it's never associated with any sort of disrespect, snobbery, classlessness, arrogance then it's hard to offend people. But even so you'll always offend someone.

I'll never forget when I got flamed for saying a tournament was soft once on my diary!

I do find it hilarious when "pros" make arrogant and classless comments about a recreational player who earns 10x the money they earn, are 100x smarter, classier and cooler yet just happen to enjoy playing poker in their spare time and aren't Phil Ivey. #wpsir

[leethefish]

Could just not label them as anything, start trending  'some players will do/like to do x and some will do/like to do y', or variations of could work when you need to refer to different situations that crop up, everyone will know what you mean anyway and nobody needs to be labelled as such.

Probably talking bollocks, but it made sense to this Non-Pro/Fish while I was reading

Political correctness gone mad.

Fish is offensive I agree but other terms such as recreational, amateur, inexperienced, non-professional should all be fine yet after x time of their usage being acceptable, people decide it's offensive and we have to find another word.

I think the context is important to be respectful, then it's not really that important which word you use, so long as it's never associated with any sort of disrespect, snobbery, classlessness, arrogance then it's hard to offend people. But even so you'll always offend someone.

I'll never forget when I got flamed for saying a tournament was soft once on my diary!

I do find it hilarious when "pros" make arrogant and classless comments about a recreational player who earns 10x the money they earn, are 100x smarter, classier and cooler yet just happen to enjoy playing poker in their spare time and aren't Phil Ivey. #wpsir

So what are you gonna call non pro's that aren't amateurs either eg George2loose?

[leethefish]

Why do we need to be labeled anyway?

[Woodsey]

I don't understand the need for names tbh, they are just other players..........

[cambridgealex]

Could just not label them as anything, start trending  'some players will do/like to do x and some will do/like to do y', or variations of could work when you need to refer to different situations that crop up, everyone will know what you mean anyway and nobody needs to be labelled as such.

Probably talking bollocks, but it made sense to this Non-Pro/Fish while I was reading

Political correctness gone mad.

Fish is offensive I agree but other terms such as recreational, amateur, inexperienced, non-professional should all be fine yet after x time of their usage being acceptable, people decide it's offensive and we have to find another word.

I think the context is important to be respectful, then it's not really that important which word you use, so long as it's never associated with any sort of disrespect, snobbery, classlessness, arrogance then it's hard to offend people. But even so you'll always offend someone.

I'll never forget when I got flamed for saying a tournament was soft once on my diary!

I do find it hilarious when "pros" make arrogant and classless comments about a recreational player who earns 10x the money they earn, are 100x smarter, classier and cooler yet just happen to enjoy playing poker in their spare time and aren't Phil Ivey. #wpsir

So what are you gonna call non pro's that aren't amateurs either eg George2loose?

I'd still call him an amateur

[skolsuper]

This discussion is stupid and its existence is more patronising than the word itself by a long way.

[George2Loose]

Could just not label them as anything, start trending  'some players will do/like to do x and some will do/like to do y', or variations of could work when you need to refer to different situations that crop up, everyone will know what you mean anyway and nobody needs to be labelled as such.

Probably talking bollocks, but it made sense to this Non-Pro/Fish while I was reading

Political correctness gone mad.

Fish is offensive I agree but other terms such as recreational, amateur, inexperienced, non-professional should all be fine yet after x time of their usage being acceptable, people decide it's offensive and we have to find another word.

I think the context is important to be respectful, then it's not really that important which word you use, so long as it's never associated with any sort of disrespect, snobbery, classlessness, arrogance then it's hard to offend people. But even so you'll always offend someone.

I'll never forget when I got flamed for saying a tournament was soft once on my diary!

I do find it hilarious when "pros" make arrogant and classless comments about a recreational player who earns 10x the money they earn, are 100x smarter, classier and cooler yet just happen to enjoy playing poker in their spare time and aren't Phil Ivey. #wpsir

So what are you gonna call non pro's that aren't amateurs either eg George2loose?

I'd still call him an amateur

Me too

[cambridgealex]

Everyone needs labels otherwise everything is so just long and tedious. I just wouldn't ever post TRs or cash game updates if I had to say

"So I enjoyed the cash game, there was one other player who plays for a living, one player who does not play for a living but has been playing for many years but does not play very often. Another play has played for many years and plays four times a week but does not play entirely for a living since he has a part time job and a business. Another player is self-employed but plays a lot of poker. Another player is very new to the game but does play for a living and finally there is a semi-professional player who is very experienced.

[tikay]

Label are fine & dandy.

I'm as pleased as Punch to see the theme of a little more respect for our opponents though (especially those deemed to be inferior) gaining currency amongst the opinion-formers. This can only be good.

There is, however, a supreme irony in the whole "you are a fish/retard/moron" thing after a player loses a hand, in that the comment is almost always made by someone who is themself.........umm......recreational. . Every time I see it, I can't help but be amazed at the false & misplaced arrogance.

From what I can see, I must be about the only fish/recreational/ND/idiot left alive. Actually, strike ND, as I'm not. Guilty as charged for the rest.

Everyone is an expert it seems.

So I love the new theme.  

As Alex has just Posted, "amateur" works fine for me. Which is correct for 99.9% of the poker population. "Good" or" bad" amateur/pro is fine, too, so are hundreds of other adjectives. Let's just be done with the deliberate insults though. The whole "let's insult the other guy", often because he won a hand of poker has run it's course I think. Hope......

 

[tikay]

I'm as pleased as Punch to see the theme of a little more respect for our opponents, especially those deemed to be inferior, gaining currency amongst the opinion-formers. This can only be good.

There is, however, a supreme irony in the whole "you are a fish/retard/moron" thing after a player loses a hand, in that the comment is almost always made by someone who is themself.........umm......recreational. . Every time I see it, I can't help but be amazed at the false & misplaced arrogance.

From what I can see, I must be about the only fish/recreational/ND/idiot left alive. Everyone is an expert it seems.

So I love the new theme.   

As Alex has jut Posted, "amateur" works fine for me.

Lol I'm sure in time this person you are clearly referring to will realise how silly he sounds abusing people in this way whilst he himself plays part time and struggles to beat the smallest stakes possible.

The problem is general, Alex, not specific to any individual.