Markups

[lucky_scrote]

I have to say coming from someone who has probably sold stuff at far too high MU in the past that a lot of people just don't realise what a fair mark-up should be. On top of this, everyone has an edge much lower than they think they actually do.

I think it will all even out eventually, by this I mean people who sell stuff at too high MU will just not sell their action. This is why threads like these are made- it helps with awareness.

[pleno1]

100% threads sold at 1.0 since start of this thread. Who will break the trend?

[George2Loose]

100% threads sold at 1.0 since start of this thread. Who will break the trend?

Now who's using ridiculous sample sizes?

[pleno1]

[dreenie]

I feel the 30/70 after stake back is a bad idea. Although I have sold a few like these, I have not sold out, therefore it is obvious they are no good for the backer. I don't believe in having to put up a certain amount of %. If you sell at spot and only play for 10-30% I don't see the problem. Although some of my staking requests have been bad, I don't think I take the biscuit, purely because when I do sell with my own money I sell at spot, so I feel it evens itself out over the long term, but won't be putting the 30/70 packages anymore.

I don't agree with selling at a high mark up for online tournaments. At the end of the day you are sitting in your own house playing poker on a computer, trying to beat thousands upon thousands runners in each tournament, surely there is not a massive edge in these games to justify such mark ups. I would only ever pay higher than 1.2 in wcoops/scoops etc for literally 3/4 people I know of in the UK - Brammer, Grafton, Lewis, Trigg. For normal Sunday's I just don't see the need.

Live tournament staking baffles me somewhat. If you have never played an EPT for example, how can you possibly justify a mark up?. You have no idea how the fields play, (just hearsay), you have never played for these sums of money of money before, and I think it is ludicrous to suggest you have X Y Z edge over the field if you have no experience within that tournament.

I personally have never sold in a live tournament over 1.2 (not sure if I sold that high before), but the bottom line why players ask for live/online backing is because they want to reduce their variance and do not want to put up the full amount of money themselves. Like Dave said, if they were actually that good, they would keep more action for themselves. By putting high mark ups on the said tournament, it allows the player to sell a small % but still lower their variance, hence I can see why people think it is a p**s take.

WSOP Main IMO, is a different kettle of fish altogether. Although I've never played it, I would consider this to be a unique 'once a year' tournament. Yes it has thousands of runners, yes there are some real sickos in the field, but the structure is 2nd to none, that's why I agree with what Flushy said in Keith's thread. Ofc as a buyer, you are looking for someone that can be patient, grind, not let anything affect them throughout, and someone who can stay focused for day's on end. There is no other tournament in the world that plays like this over that many day's for that sort of money for the buy in it is, hence it being unique and I feel players do have a right to charge higher than what they usually would on that particular tournament.

@ Sicilian - Regards to Keith, if he has played 12 times and only cashed once. He may well be losing over that period on that tournament, but 12 times is very small sample to use. I would imagine Keith has played hundreds of EPTS, WCOOPS, GUKPT'S, etc etc, all with long structures and multiple day's, he has the experience, and the right temperament to succeed in this tournament, I would put a large amount of money on, that if you judged him over 25 years, he would be in profit just in WSOP Main alone.

[nirvana]

Dreenie, I'd have thought your recent staking threads are kind of what Blonde is about. A well liked, well known member who is a good player and under it. So people are happy to shelve notions of exact value and stake you play to the games in the expectation they have a good chance of a return and cause they like you.

Keep going imo

[MANTIS01]

True dat

[Boba Fett]

Live tournament staking baffles me somewhat. If you have never played an EPT for example, how can you possibly justify a mark up?. You have no idea how the fields play, (just hearsay), you have never played for these sums of money of money before, and I think it is ludicrous to suggest you have X Y Z edge over the field if you have no experience within that tournament.

WSOP Main IMO, is a different kettle of fish altogether. Although I've never played it, I would consider this to be a unique 'once a year' tournament. Yes it has thousands of runners, yes there are some real sickos in the field, but the structure is 2nd to none, that's why I agree with what Flushy said in Keith's thread. Ofc as a buyer, you are looking for someone that can be patient, grind, not let anything affect them throughout, and someone who can stay focused for day's on end. There is no other tournament in the world that plays like this over that many day's for that sort of money for the buy in it is, hence it being unique and I feel players do have a right to charge higher than what they usually would on that particular tournament.

Dont agree with your 1st paragraph at all.  EPT is just a brand, ok it will have some differences in size/structure/buyin than other tournaments but if someone is winning at mid/high stakes online MTTs, against the majority of the players in EPT fields, has played several WSOP/WPT and any other worldwide event of similar buyin or against the same fields that EPT attract but that player doesnt play an EPT for a while, how can he or she then not justify markup in that tournament because they havent played that particular brand before?

If a multiple EPT winner played a WPT event for the 1st time would they not be able to charge markup because they havent specifically played in a WPT event before?  Of course not! 

When you pay markup for someone in a tournament, you're not paying for their previous record in the tournament, you're paying for their current ability going into the tournament.  People will just judge players on their previous record in tournaments when making decisions and rather than considering their current ability in the tournament.

Saying the main event is different in that respect just contradicts the point you were making IMO.  There is obviously differences between the WSOP main and an EPT Main event but do these difference allow 1st time participants to justify selling at markup in WSOP and not EPT?

I think everyone is overreacting, if people don't sell here at markup they will sell it elsewhere.  If you dont wanna buy it, dont buy it.  If people are continually selling too high they will stop selling out and will be forced to drop their markups.

[Simon Galloway]

30% for no equity is fine for an 'alms package' to help someone on stony ground, but it should be chok-full of $3R type tournys... putting $200+ mtts in the schedule is a bit rich.

[dreenie]

Live tournament staking baffles me somewhat. If you have never played an EPT for example, how can you possibly justify a mark up?. You have no idea how the fields play, (just hearsay), you have never played for these sums of money of money before, and I think it is ludicrous to suggest you have X Y Z edge over the field if you have no experience within that tournament.

WSOP Main IMO, is a different kettle of fish altogether. Although I've never played it, I would consider this to be a unique 'once a year' tournament. Yes it has thousands of runners, yes there are some real sickos in the field, but the structure is 2nd to none, that's why I agree with what Flushy said in Keith's thread. Ofc as a buyer, you are looking for someone that can be patient, grind, not let anything affect them throughout, and someone who can stay focused for day's on end. There is no other tournament in the world that plays like this over that many day's for that sort of money for the buy in it is, hence it being unique and I feel players do have a right to charge higher than what they usually would on that particular tournament.

Dont agree with your 1st paragraph at all.  EPT is just a brand, ok it will have some differences in size/structure/buyin than other tournaments but if someone is winning at mid/high stakes online MTTs, against the majority of the players in EPT fields, has played several WSOP/WPT and any other worldwide event of similar buyin or against the same fields that EPT attract but that player doesnt play an EPT for a while, how can he or she then not justify markup in that tournament because they havent played that particular brand before?

If a multiple EPT winner played a WPT event for the 1st time would they not be able to charge markup because they havent specifically played in a WPT event before?  Of course not!  

When you pay markup for someone in a tournament, you're not paying for their previous record in the tournament, you're paying for their current ability going into the tournament.  People will just judge players on their previous record in tournaments when making decisions and rather than considering their current ability in the tournament.

Saying the main event is different in that respect just contradicts the point you were making IMO.  There is obviously differences between the WSOP main and an EPT Main event but do these difference allow 1st time participants to justify selling at markup in WSOP and not EPT?

I think everyone is overreacting, if people don't sell here at markup they will sell it elsewhere.  If you dont wanna buy it, dont buy it.  If people are continually selling too high they will stop selling out and will be forced to drop their markups.

What I meant to say was 'how can u justify a high mark up' - Obviously no problem at people selling for EPT's etc, even with a mark up, but I do think for you to say 'people are selling a mark up depending what form they are in' Is not true, I don't see many threads state this fact, all they seem to bang on about is how soft the field is?

If some guy plays <$200 tournaments Online and <£500 comps live, would u buy a piece of his 1st ever EPT tournament at 1.25+, just because he had shipped a £200 freeze-out 2 weeks ago?

Out of respect more than anything, you should charge spot for 1st time surely? If you were that good battling the sort of players at EPT then why not keep all your action?

Don't agree with the your statement that wsop & ept are In the same group either. How comes on every EPT the majority of winners have had very good Online/Live records, you hardly ever see a 'random' shipping one. But take WSOP, Darvin Moon, Jamie Gold, just to name a couple...

[dreenie]

30% for no equity is fine for an 'alms package' to help someone on stony ground, but it should be chok-full of $3R type tournys... putting $200+ mtts in the schedule is a bit rich.

Yes I 100% agree, I said this to myself the last time actually. It was cheeky asking for other people for $$ to play 100-300 dollar tournaments when I had no funds to put in myself.

[robyong]

I've gotten pretty ticked off with the mark-ups people are charging lately - but I don't mind at all, I just but in single comps when i fancy a punt or "feel" someone might win anyways so I just buy less. 1.3 is now the "stnd" for live comps, when last year 1.2 was everyone's default Mark-up, with it only increasing in special circumstances, every selling for WSOP events now at 1.3 and 1.35, not saying people are bad value, just saying it can't really be GREAT value in most circumstances.

for the last 12 months I've had a policy of "no mark-up" I don't ever sell at mark up, even the main event and the $5k 6m plo (my specialst event) I've sold at spot. I've stopped selling action on blonde because I can't sell action at spot to people who would charge me a mark-up, which is a shame cos i liked having blonde sweats but that's what it is.

I feel like if people really believed in the mark-ups they were charging they'd sell less action. If you're ROI in the main is 300% (like people are suggesting) then you make $30k by entering, so if clicking the reg btn meant $30k equity I'd be working as hard as i could to ensure I had as much action as possible, as it only happens once a year.

im with you brother

agree with you little dave, and sadly pheno aswell

[aaron1867]

A lot of people saying let the market decide or if you are not happy dont buy.

But what about those who get their MU totally wrong and change their MU? Perhaps been angling for biggest MU possible, but happy to re-post if not going to plan?

Whilst also curious to see why people are using auctions? Are people genuinely trying to gamble via this to gain a bigger MU?

[Boba Fett]

A lot of people saying let the market decide or if you are not happy dont buy.

But what about those who get their MU totally wrong and change their MU? Perhaps been angling for biggest MU possible, but happy to re-post if not going to plan?

Whilst also curious to see why people are using auctions? Are people genuinely trying to gamble via this to gain a bigger MU?

I don't get what point you are making, what about those people?  It's a clear example of the market speaking and the seller can either choose to keep the action or lower it to meet their supply and demand equilibrium. People weren't happy, they didn't buy, they were offered a new price the might have been more happy with

[tonytats]

Dreenie, I'd have thought your recent staking threads are kind of what Blonde is about. A well liked, well known member who is a good player and under it. So people are happy to shelve notions of exact value and stake you play to the games in the expectation they have a good chance of a return and cause they like you.

Keep going imo

Ignoring " the under it " bit this is what influences my decision to buy a % of somebody