Is this bad etiquette?

[bobAlike]

Having a think about it what's the difference between a footballer playing a dummy ball and #2?

[theprawnidentity]

Hand 1: Its fine, though if you're a player who is generally quiet during hands then I would continue to be so.

Hand 2:  I'm not sure if I think this is bad or not.  Is it really any different from giving off a false tell?  Sometimes I like to up my ebullience at the table to encourage a fold when someone starts thinking about calling, is that douchey too?  I'm not sure if 'mock mucking' is any different?  Also from a techincal point of view with this hand, you're doing so cause you've checked to him and want him to bet.  If he has showdown value and thinks your folding anyway, you probably stop him from value betting if he thinks the bet won't get called.  Conversely, if he doesn't have showdown value he will probably have to bet regardless?  I don't really see what we gain in this spot by doing this.

[RED-DOG]

What pisses me off is the person to the left of the player to act does it.

[mondatoo]

Didn't Antonio get a lot of stick on here for doing the same thing on HSP ?

[Honeybadger]

One problem with any of these sort of things is that if you ever win a pot from an opponent because you somehow 'tricked' him it will almost always leave a bad taste in his mouth. Having your opponents feel like they have been tricked by a wily bit of speech play or a fake-fold, or anything else like that, is not a good thing for the long-term health of poker. No-one likes feeling that they have been sharked. It makes them feel uncomfortable and embarrassed. And it just fosters the image of ruthless pros preying on the weak players.

I prefer to be quiet during pots, and if I do ever engage in banter during a pot it is always just for fun rather than to get an edge - and I only do it when the pot is small. When a pots get big I show respect for my opponent(s) and respect for the game, by keeping my gob shut.

[redarmi]

It is pretty laughable that he called your raise after you did 2 though.....I would imagine he wasn't paying any attention.

[kinboshi]

#1 is abso fine... not remotely bad in any way (except probs in a getting paid sense)

#2 is kinda low. I did this once myself when I first started playing and then realised it was kinda wrong. It depends slightly how you did it... if you're holding your cards almost over the line in a very suggestive manner (or even worse motioning you are going to fold) I think its pretty douchey... if there's just a certain way you regularly hold your cards when you are going to be folding (quite a few do esp pre) then it's fine.

Had pretty much typed exactly the same as this out.  So agree with whoever this is.

[Kev B]

Isn't 2 just a visual bluff?

[cambridgealex]

One problem with any of these sort of things is that if you ever win a pot from an opponent because you somehow 'tricked' him it will almost always leave a bad taste in his mouth. Having your opponents feel like they have been tricked by a wily bit of speech play or a fake-fold, or anything else like that, is not a good thing for the long-term health of poker. No-one likes feeling that they have been sharked. It makes them feel uncomfortable and embarrassed. And it just fosters the image of ruthless pros preying on the weak players.

I prefer to be quiet during pots, and if I do ever engage in banter during a pot it is always just for fun rather than to get an edge - and I only do it when the pot is small. When a pots get big I show respect for my opponent(s) and respect for the game, by keeping my gob shut.

This.

Douches gonna douche though.

[Ironside]

i still remember as a newbie too the game i had entered a £500 game in dundee as was talking too simon aces trumper, i was always very chatty, and we had just been talking about a hand played at another festival where i had AK. he limped UTG and i had raised it up with KK he flatted with 22 and shoved on a low board thinking i had AK as i had stopped talking, enough too say i didnt hold . but gave me a lesson if your a chatty person at the table keep chatting when you in a pot otherwise you can give off nore tells than if you shut up.

[celtic]

So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair.

The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot.

This is no different to what Aaron did IMO.

[aaron1867]

One problem with any of these sort of things is that if you ever win a pot from an opponent because you somehow 'tricked' him it will almost always leave a bad taste in his mouth. Having your opponents feel like they have been tricked by a wily bit of speech play or a fake-fold, or anything else like that, is not a good thing for the long-term health of poker. No-one likes feeling that they have been sharked. It makes them feel uncomfortable and embarrassed. And it just fosters the image of ruthless pros preying on the weak players.

I prefer to be quiet during pots, and if I do ever engage in banter during a pot it is always just for fun rather than to get an edge - and I only do it when the pot is small. When a pots get big I show respect for my opponent(s) and respect for the game, by keeping my gob shut.

Good point Stu, but going to hand number one, perhaps speech play isn't tricking someone or are you mostly referring to hand 2?

You could use an example of board double pairs and one players says to the other "we definitely aren't splitting the pot", which could change action through speech?

So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair.

The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot.

This is no different to what Aaron did IMO.

Onto another level here

[GreekStein]

So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair.

The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot.

This is no different to what Aaron did IMO.

Of course it is. If the guy pretended to bet (lol) then it would be the same.

[celtic]

So Aaron pretends to fold. The guy sees this, and bets with 5 high, because he thinks Aaron is gonna fold as he only has bottom pair.

The guy is now using what he sees as weakness to win the pot.

This is no different to what Aaron did IMO.

Of course it is. If the guy pretended to bet (lol) then it would be the same.

Whati mean is, Aaron is acting as if he is going to fold. The guy then thinks he can steal the pot, (not just using Aaron here, but say its against a weak player, who doesn't really realise what he is doing) so the guy bets, knowing he is behind, and its the only way he can win the pot. Is the guy that bets now being a douche?

[MANTIS01]

I wouldn't be remotely offended by either and don't think it's bad etiquette at all. The problem is both are so basic theory-wise. The first is just a normal question that can't ever help "get all his chips" as you suggest. The second is nothing because cards are folded in the muck so you can wave your cards "as if to fold" if you really want to, but who would really believe that means you're weak? Nobody that's who.

Sometimes in a pot with good staring players I touch my face or lean back when strong but generally silence is the best policy imo. That said if villains want to motion a fold when they have a strong hand at the table I am ok with that. Keep calm and carry on with these skills aaron1867.