Huge turning point hand for me

[not gus]

Blinds at 400-800 my stack 21000

UTG is Mohammed min raises to 1600 he has about 40000

called in 3rd position by Paul Zimbler who has just won a couple of big pots, is hitting and buzzing. He is table chip leader

everyone folds to me I have  in the big blind (suits may be wrong but not important for hand)

I reraise to 4800 which I think is a mistake. The raise should have been bigger. I am out of position and taking this pot now is not a bad result. Mo could have not much or he could have Aces. When he just flat calls I can eliminate AA as he would reraise for sure now with another player in the pot.

Paul thinks for a good minute or so then folds.

Flop comes 

Godammit!! just once can I please have a flop without an ace when I am holding KK

Anyway, I reason there is every chance Mo doesnt have an ace here and I cant bear the thought of checking and letting Mo bet me off the hand, so I bet 5000 with the intention of surrendering to any resistance.

Mo folds and I take down the 12000 pot, leaving me on nearly 30k instead of 11.

The point about this hand is that Paul Zimbler folds 

In my opinion this was a mistake. I spoke with him about the hand later and he said he knew I had big pair. Even so, with 11600 already in the pot and only 3200 more to call, he has position and plenty of chips and 2opponents with reasonable chips left in front of them. The situation, current pot odds and large implied odds demand a call in my opinion.

As it happens, with 2 players behind me, I almost certainly dont make the 5k bet on the flop as it is just too likely that one of them has an ace.

I would be interested to hear opinions

cheers

[bundle]

well if i were paul i would have mucked also. he had you on a big hand and is looking to hit the 2 outter. I agree the pot is large enough to make the call, but i don't like the fact that i really need to see the 4 on the flop to stay in the hand. the flop could just have well come out K 4 8 and now i would be in all sorts of trouble.

I just ask myself am i ahead, he decided he was not and got away from it...1600 is not to hard to get away from.

JMHO

[TightEnd]

I passed 22 first hand of the tournament to a raise out of the small blind

I would have hit quads

I think passing 44 is a standard pass here for Paul

looking to hit a set, being offered 4-1, when that set is a 7-1 shot, yes?

percentage wise this is the right play for low pocket pairs

[Dubai]

Implied odds. After he calls the first raise in a fairly ep he has to call re-raise for 3200 here when he knows he is closing the action. Particularly if he was chipped up.

Given that he had already called 1600, passing for the extra 3200 is definitely a bad play here.

[bundle]

I just don't see it that way. thats like calling with Jacks when you know the other guy had Aces. if you know you are behind and looking to hit a 2 outter you have to pass, and to make matter worse you have to hit the 2 outter on the flop.

 And like i posted before, what if the flop had come 4 K 8 ? now what? you lose all your chips because you couldnt pass a hand pre flop when you knew you were behind...

[Dubai]

Well you wont win many tournaments playing with that mindset imo.

If you call and you flop set over set then you are out. No big deal, there is a festival "Main Event" on every week these days. Just play the next one.

[bundle]

Thats what makes the game so great. there is no right answer...Just different people playing different ways..

Peace..

[Dubai]

Yep il just take my 15-2 that I flop a set and win a huge pot as long as the 84-1 shot that we both flop sets doesnt materalise.

[mystery721]

i think the laydown preflop with 4 4 is correct, if he has u on a big pair, hes not really gonna know where he stands with a flop of something like 4 q k, if he has u on a big pair u could easily of just made trips on the flop. the correct preflop fold imo, calling a raise preflop when u know ur a huge underdog is just bad poker no matter wot odds ur getting

[ACE2M]

I would have called with position and on a rush, so i think i have a resonable chance to win the pot even if i miss. If i do hit then i stand to win another huge pot.

[Royal Flush]

Implied odds. After he calls the first raise in a fairly ep he has to call re-raise for 3200 here when he knows he is closing the action. Particularly if he was chipped up.

Given that he had already called 1600, passing for the extra 3200 is definitely a bad play here.

spot on.

It's an auto call.

[JungleCat03]

i think the laydown preflop with 4 4 is correct, if he has u on a big pair, hes not really gonna know where he stands with a flop of something like 4 q k, if he has u on a big pair u could easily of just made trips on the flop. the correct preflop fold imo, calling a raise preflop when u know ur a huge underdog is just bad poker no matter wot odds ur getting

He's got good implied odds vs what he reads as a big pair, a hand thats easy to get away from if he doesnt get what hes looking for and position.

Definitely a call for me.

Saying calling a raise when you are a huge dog is bad poker is simplistic. In deeper stacked events good players will often call raises with more meagre holdings, knowing that a perfect fit to stack an opponent or their ability to play people off flops compensate for the initial weakness of their starting hand.

Read about some of Daniel Negreanu's plays. He didn't become cardplayer's player of the year in 2004 by only playing AA or KK to a raise.

 

[ACE2M]

Read about some of Daniel Negreanu's plays. He didn't become cardplayer's player of the year in 2004 by only playing AA or KK to a raise.

 

On a side note does anyone else think that negreanu's blog is the naffest read in pokerdom.

[mikkyT]

i think the laydown preflop with 4 4 is correct, if he has u on a big pair, hes not really gonna know where he stands with a flop of something like 4 q k, if he has u on a big pair u could easily of just made trips on the flop. the correct preflop fold imo, calling a raise preflop when u know ur a huge underdog is just bad poker no matter wot odds ur getting

He's got good implied odds vs what he reads as a big pair, a hand thats easy to get away from if he doesnt get what hes looking for and position.

Definitely a call for me.

Saying calling a raise when you are a huge dog is bad poker is simplistic. In deeper stacked events good players will often call raises with more meagre holdings, knowing that a perfect fit to stack an opponent or their ability to play people off flops compensate for the initial weakness of their starting hand.

Read about some of Daniel Negreanu's plays. He didn't become cardplayer's player of the year in 2004 by only playing AA or KK to a raise.

 

 

the beauty about mistakes is that you can (if you try) learn from them. But if you believe you are right then you're probably not going to.

mysterys (if hes real) form of poker is probably profitable. And thats great. But it doesn't win tournaments, and certainly wont win big event bracelets. I'd rather win 1 tournament and lose 19, than to finish in the bottom level of the money 20 times.

[12barblues]

....... calling a raise preflop when u know ur a huge underdog is just bad poker no matter wot odds ur getting

Here we go again.......