FOBT's

[DungBeetle]

I would ban fruit machines, FOBTs and virtual racing.

There is something that doesn't sit right with me that allows a corporate to create a rigged game that has the sole purpose of extracting money from a weak minded punter.  If you want a rigged game, then go to the casino, where at least it has a bit of theatre, and more importantly it's a hassle for someone to go there.

Bookies have their place (and I love a bet as much as the next man) but restrict their offerings to "real" events.  If there is no horse racing on a particular day, then close the shop.

Obviously this is tongue in cheek coming from me but everything in moderation gentlemen

[DungBeetle]

And if they really must have them then make the betting duty 80% so the bookie gets only a small margin by having them, and the Government gets a wad of cash back so it can dole it back out to some poor sod who can't work because he's addicted.

[tikay]

And if they really must have them then make the betting duty 80% so the bookie gets only a small margin by having them, and the Government gets a wad of cash back so it can dole it back out to some poor sod who can't work because he's addicted.

The State should give more money to people with a gambling addiction? Bit of a slippery slope that, is it not?

[DungBeetle]

But they'll give it to them either way Tikay.  Better it goes back to government than to a bookie, if the person in question is incapable of performing any useful labour.  Aren't all the bookies in some Euro countries state controlled?  Assume this is the same principal.

[DungBeetle]

I'm assuming here that someone who does their pods on a daily basis on FOBTs isn't of sounds mind to hold down a normal job and gets benefits anyway (which may not be the case to be reflection).

Can't see any negative to increasing duty though.  Anything that incentivises bookies to focus on real horse racing is a plus in my book.

[tikay]

But they'll give it to them either way Tikay.  Better it goes back to government than to a bookie, if the person in question is incapable of performing any useful labour.  Aren't all the bookies in some Euro countries state controlled?  Assume this is the same principal.

OK, lets assume all FOBT's in LBO's are banned.

Are we then going to ban Online Slots? Online Slots are a FAR bigger revenue source than those in LBO's, by a factor of many.

You seen the TV adverts recently, with all the major Sports Betting Sites advertising Roulette, via Desktop & even Mobile now?

[tikay]

I'm assuming here that someone who does their pods on a daily basis on FOBTs isn't of sounds mind to hold down a normal job and gets benefits anyway (which may not be the case to be reflection).

Can't see any negative to increasing duty though.  Anything that incentivises bookies to focus on real horse racing is a plus in my book.

Fine, go ahead.

Guess who will pay in the long run? Yup, the punters. Bookies aint gonna be absorbing extra tax any time soon, they'll do what all businesses do - pass it on somehow.

[DungBeetle]

Yes I would - but that would be much harder to enforce.

My position is that artificial games should be the realm of the bricks and mortar casino only.

I don't mind bookies fleecing punters, but I want a bit of theatre.  Like a never ending Betfred advert.

[Dubai]

Online slots maybe a bigger source of revenue but it's probably loads of rich whales skewing the figures- the reason fobts are so bad are because they target the common working man, can't bet big enough to ever win a significant amount and just fritter away your money everytime. £300 to the average joe in a betting shop far more harmful for him than rich whale doing 50k on online slots

[DungBeetle]

I'm assuming here that someone who does their pods on a daily basis on FOBTs isn't of sounds mind to hold down a normal job and gets benefits anyway (which may not be the case to be reflection).

Can't see any negative to increasing duty though.  Anything that incentivises bookies to focus on real horse racing is a plus in my book.

Fine, go ahead.

Guess who will pay in the long run? Yup, the punters. Bookies aint gonna be absorbing extra tax any time soon, they'll do what all businesses do - pass it on somehow.

Hard to do -  every extra pound they take from the punter in FOBT they would have to hand 80% to HMRC.  Betting duty is a hard tax to pass on or avoid (I think).  Surely this would just drive them to other activities which still attract betting duty at 15% or 3%?  

[arbboy]

The argument that FOBT's being banned will simply transfer the cash to online slots doesn't stand up for me for several reasons and it helps to prove FOBT's punters in general are potentially the most exploitable and vunerable people in society .  Playing online slots involves a number of factors which are not required to play FOBT's in LBO's.  Firstly you need a laptop/PC/iphone.  I would imagine the bottom 10% of society still don't have access to these.  Secondly to play online slots you also need a bank account.  Again for the vast majority of people this seems a totally standard thing to have however around 5m people in this country don't have a bank account.  Thirdly even if you have a bank account and laptop you still have to find some way of feeding your habit through your bank account without your partner finding out via bank statements and actually sit down somewhere (with a wifi connection) to actually play these FOBT games without anyone else realising what you are doing.     It's these 5m people in society who are potentially exploited the most by FOBT's and i think the sooner they are banned the better.

Another reason to ban them for me is the amount of money laundering that goes on through them from drug dealers who have openly admitted in the press recently that they use FOBT's to clean their money and are happy to do the 2.75% margin to the firms to provide this service.  ie putting £50 red £50 black and £2.75 on zero for every spin.  Again these fobt 'customers' are also not going to convert to online slots for obvious reasons.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/nov/08/gambling-machines-drug-money-laundering-bookies

[tikay]

The argument that FOBT's being banned will simply transfer the cash to online slots doesn't stand up for me for several reasons and it helps to prove FOBT's punters in general are potentially the most exploitable and vunerable people in society .  Playing online slots involves a number of factors which are not required to play FOBT's in LBO's.  Firstly you need a laptop/PC/iphone.  I would imagine the bottom 10% of society still don't have access to these.  Secondly to play online slots you also need a bank account.  Again for the vast majority of people this seems a totally standard thing to have however around 5m people in this country don't have a bank account.  Thirdly even if you have a bank account and laptop you still have to find some way of feeding your habit through your bank account without your partner finding out via bank statements and actually sit down somewhere (with a wifi connection) to actually play these FOBT games without anyone else realising what you are doing.     It's these 5m people in society who are potentially exploited the most by FOBT's and i think the sooner they are banned the better.

That seems fair comment.

I was just trying to bring some balance though - banning FOBT's in LBO's won't cure everything.

I'm not arguing with you though, I'm not that brave, I leave that to Dear Adzy.  He sent me a note overnight, chuffed to bits with the Arsenal win, & Everton loss, "with any luck Wenger will stay on now" was the gist of it.

[Cf]

But they'll give it to them either way Tikay.  Better it goes back to government than to a bookie, if the person in question is incapable of performing any useful labour.  Aren't all the bookies in some Euro countries state controlled?  Assume this is the same principal.

You seen the TV adverts recently, with all the major Sports Betting Sites advertising Roulette, via Desktop & even Mobile now?

The amount of adverts for online casinos, online betting, online bingo, etc on tv is pretty terrible. Should go the same way as tobacco IMO and be banned.

[arbboy]

The argument that FOBT's being banned will simply transfer the cash to online slots doesn't stand up for me for several reasons and it helps to prove FOBT's punters in general are potentially the most exploitable and vunerable people in society .  Playing online slots involves a number of factors which are not required to play FOBT's in LBO's.  Firstly you need a laptop/PC/iphone.  I would imagine the bottom 10% of society still don't have access to these.  Secondly to play online slots you also need a bank account.  Again for the vast majority of people this seems a totally standard thing to have however around 5m people in this country don't have a bank account.  Thirdly even if you have a bank account and laptop you still have to find some way of feeding your habit through your bank account without your partner finding out via bank statements and actually sit down somewhere (with a wifi connection) to actually play these FOBT games without anyone else realising what you are doing.     It's these 5m people in society who are potentially exploited the most by FOBT's and i think the sooner they are banned the better.

That seems fair comment.

I was just trying to bring some balance though - banning FOBT's in LBO's won't cure everything.

I'm not arguing with you though, I'm not that brave, I leave that to Dear Adzy.  He sent me a note overnight, chuffed to bits with the Arsenal win, & Everton loss, "with any luck Wenger will stay on now" was the gist of it.

Obviously banning them won't cure every problem but i think it would help solve the biggest current problem gambling issue and stop undesirable's having an easy route to clean their cash amongst other things.

As for Adz i think i laid him the following bet last night on Arsenal winning the league.  Only big adz could actually believe arsenal can still win the league!

Arsenal  1000   £6.50   £6,493.50  

[arbboy]

But they'll give it to them either way Tikay.  Better it goes back to government than to a bookie, if the person in question is incapable of performing any useful labour.  Aren't all the bookies in some Euro countries state controlled?  Assume this is the same principal.

You seen the TV adverts recently, with all the major Sports Betting Sites advertising Roulette, via Desktop & even Mobile now?

The amount of adverts for online casinos, online betting, online bingo, etc on tv is pretty terrible. Should go the same way as tobacco IMO and be banned.

I agree in some ways.  I was talking to someone who doesn't work in the gambling industry who came round to see me last night and we were watching TV and he just casually said the same thing.  I do sometimes wonder what people outside of the gambling world think about the current bombardment of gambling adverts effectively out of nowhere in the past 3/4 years.