530 line check

[mulhuzz]

but he defended against a minraise a million bb deep, surely there are better hands to checkback than AK, KTs for example. We not cbetting our air on this flop or are ppls utg ranges in this like 6%?

It's about his turn calling range though mate. He's just over folding way too much ott, all qx and upto kj. I feel like we max value from checking back flop/calling turn+ river and occasionally raising some turns/rivers depending on sizings.

checkback turn then, i think with this line good players can turn every Tx into a bluff with a decent frequency. I mean its a fairly moot point between delayed cbet and cbet and this is just on the cusp of a GTO call (assuming ur checking back KK/QQ....)

Good players wouldn't do a high variance bluff like this pre ante in a tournament. There's just literally no need. Stack preservation brah.

How high variance is his bluff if we want to fold this hand? Given that this hand makes up such a huge part of your value range (combos wise) on river?

I don't have answers, just question

[Peanut172]

So havent read most of the convo, initial thought was raise more pre but you already covered why you dont etc as played river is a pretty meh fold, its too early to be bluff catching imo people just dont tend to do it and we are just crushed by his value range like he doesnt have aq there with this sizing imo but im torn between betting/checking flop, id probably just bet it as he is not folding anything on this flop such as gut shots, qx, kx, suited a2-a5 and we can just bet/fold flop, and i dont think we are going to get any value from anything else on the turn in terms of his just deciding to start bluffing given the blind levels, and its like prime time on a sunday and he will have a bunch of tables.

[pleno1]

God in so fkn bad how don't I fold turn ?'!?!?!?!

[Rexas]

Why exactly are we playing this hand pre if we're going to make top two, tremendously under-rep our hand and then fold?

[pleno1]

if you go to a club, find the hottest girl in there, you dont even look at her and then she asks you to go home and in the taxi on the way there tells you she has a dick would you still go?

it applies here

[Pinchop73]

I can't fold so I'd be fucked

[Rexas]

if you go to a club, find the hottest girl in there, you dont even look at her and then she asks you to go home and in the taxi on the way there tells you she has a dick would you still go?

it applies here

Wait, you've lost me... How am I to find the hottest girl in the club if I can't look at her? Your mind works in a strange way

[SuuPRlim]

Why exactly are we playing this hand pre if we're going to make top two, tremendously under-rep our hand and then fold?

The point Pleno is making is, the decision to open pre-flop, and the decision to call or fold on the river are completely separate decision, the only slim correlation between the two is that they occurred in the same hand.

At no point during deciding to call a river bet should "well I played this hand pre-flop so I should call" be a rational thought process.

[Rexas]

Ok, maybe I'll word this a little differently,

We open pre to 2x which I don't really go with since we're this deep etc etc, but hey whatever. Then we flop top pair and check back on a board that should really hit our opponent a fair bit, but fine I'm on board with the reasoning here. So we check to effectively bluff catch and cause our opponent to perhaps over-value hands. We then improve to a proper value hand, get to a river and decide it's too early in the tournament to bluff catch? Surely, by this logic, we want to be playing hands that can make the nuts in multiple ways, which AKos isn't particularly great at. However, if we want to play hands that become nutted hands post reasonably often, but want to play a small pot in these situations so open for the minimum? I'm seeing a lot of conflicting logic here that I don't follow.

[mulhuzz]

I can't fold so I'd be fucked

<3

[Nit Tendencies]

Lol mate.... You seem to have picked up the very same bad habits that you warned me about tourney players 18 months ago.

[cambridgealex]

Think Pads thought process and logic is spot on here. Tough to fold river, even tougher to fold turn, but if anyone can do it, the best in the business can...

[Nit Tendencies]

I snap responded to this post drunk, and I'm looking over it again drunker and although it does appear to be indicative sizing of the nuts, surely from a theory perspective we can't check back this hand and fold this river considering our perceived range and his actual range?

[lolwutwasthat]

We are at the abso top of our range so if we are folding this, what are we calling?

[titaniumbean]

I snap responded to this post drunk, and I'm looking over it again drunker and although it does appear to be indicative sizing of the nuts, surely from a theory perspective we can't check back this hand and fold this river considering our perceived range and his actual range?

post moarrr when durrrrunk