Road to being a pro

[AlunB]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that it is easy these days.  The point that i was making is that the amount of time and effort that most prospective professional poker players (and other gamblers) put it would get a better return in other industries with much less variance.  If, for example, I had spent 60 hours a week programming rather than studying form for the past 20 years then my upside would be the same or higher and my minimum income would be much higher too with significantly less variance.  Of course those arent the only things to consider.  I have had a blast doing what I do and there are other positive externalities such as ability to travel, not work in a corporate enviroment etc etc but they were much more important to me when I was younger than they are now when my number one priority is providing for my little one, paying the mortgage etc and given what I know now I am not sure if I would make the same choice again.

Yep, hard to argue with that. And I wasn't to be fair. I thought it was a really good post. I meant more the people who speak in generalities such as going into "business" or "trading" etc. Definitely agree if I could live my life again I wouldn't make the same career choices, but hindsight is a shitload easier than foresight. To be a good programmer you need to enjoy it too I suspect.

Sorry for the derail!

[horseplayer]

If you have been out the corporate environment for a while its easy to forget just how frustrating it can be..


I am certainly finding that after coming back after a few years out.

[Sulphur man]

Dubai is obviously right.

I just wouldnt suggest many people to listen to him because most poker players are deluded about their abilities. If they listened to him (what he says is correct if you are good) then they would just lose a lot of money quickly. Generally people are just degens and if they can play small stakes, lose a little or win a little its probably good for them.

You wont learn much moving up the stakes like Dubai said, they are generally just filled with players from paragraph 2 ^^ that try to not make many mistakes and thus just play weak tight and with the high rake its just a snoozfest, you're not learning anything and you won't really be improving and it wont help you for higher stakes games that are filled differently.

If you want to learn theory stuff just buy Matt Janda's book. Playing live really makes little sense, I've done the math in other peoples threads previously, but try and work out your actually hourly playing live, then minus costs, then minus all the other stuff that comes with it and then realise the variance of it vs playing online where your hourly will be way higher.

Finally Dubai right again about you should probably lend 5k and play higher but obviously thats a hard thing to do, instead just forget about poker for 3-4 months, get some job where you amke 1-2k a month and then you will have a little roll for yourself.  Poker will be here in a few months, dw.

Read the thread and believe this is the best advice you receive. Would reread. Best of luck. And if you think you can do it
put all possible effort in and go for it.

[SuuPRlim]

Ha poor kid starts a diary and it's somehow turned into a UCAS Application/Career advisors office All us poor professional gamblers sharing the hardships of our lives

Let's not forget, if you enjoy poker or gambling then doing it for a living is fucking amazing. I don't even tell people about half the things I've seen or done because it might seem braggy and actually they probably won't even believe me. All the people I've met, the things I've done and the places I've been I wouldn't have done even 5% of them if it wasn't for "pro" poker playing...

Sure right now as I start to get a little older I have looked into the future, 3, 5 and 10 years down the line for me as a professional gambler and I'll be honest for me personally it really doesn't look too great, but doesn't matter what I do if I make a success in business, or fail and have to get a job somewhere, or even if i fall back into gambling full time and go from there then I'll always have the memories and the experiences of the last 5 years and I know 1000% there is no way I will ever regret the choices I've made during that part of my life. Sure I'm sure there are a few individual moments that I could have done a little better (mostly blackjack + vegas related haha) but if i had to make those howling mistakes to have done what I've done then I'd do it again, 1000 times over.

Just go for it mate, you're young and there's no losing atm, it'sonly winning or not winning and that's not a luxury you have forever.

Add me on skype (same name as here) if you ever wanna chat strategy or just want any help on anything

[Sulphur man]

Ha poor kid starts a diary and it's somehow turned into a UCAS Application/Career advisors office All us poor professional gamblers sharing the hardships of our lives

Let's not forget, if you enjoy poker or gambling then doing it for a living is fucking amazing. I don't even tell people about half the things I've seen or done because it might seem braggy and actually they probably won't even believe me. All the people I've met, the things I've done and the places I've been I wouldn't have done even 5% of them if it wasn't for "pro" poker playing...

Sure right now as I start to get a little older I have looked into the future, 3, 5 and 10 years down the line for me as a professional gambler and I'll be honest for me personally it really doesn't look too great, but doesn't matter what I do if I make a success in business, or fail and have to get a job somewhere, or even if i fall back into gambling full time and go from there then I'll always have the memories and the experiences of the last 5 years and I know 1000% there is no way I will ever regret the choices I've made during that part of my life. Sure I'm sure there are a few individual moments that I could have done a little better (mostly blackjack + vegas related haha) but if i had to make those howling mistakes to have done what I've done then I'd do it again, 1000 times over.

Just go for it mate, you're young and there's no losing atm, it'sonly winning or not winning and that's not a luxury you have forever.

Add me on skype (same name as here) if you ever wanna chat strategy or just want any help on anything

Amazing post could not put it better myself, fair play. Diary has been great so far will keep up with it for sure.

[KingPush]

Goals for September

50 HHS
Learn plo starting ranges
80 hours of poker play
20 hours poker study
Read "treat your poker like a business"

Started playing plo and seems like no one has a clue including myself. Also been watching a lot joeingram1 podcasts and even though I'm not the biggest fan of him, plo seems a lot of fun and easier to move up in than nlhe where a lot of people are full time grinders even at nl25/20 which is insane when you think about it. Anyway I really recommend the podcast with lex veldhuis guy's been there and done it and has a lot of stories to tell and still seems to crush online as well which is really cool to me.

[baldock92]

Is there absolutely no chance of getting a 2:1 in your degree? I thought it would be pretty impossible but managed to scrape the goods this summer. Even so, a 2:2 would be a great effort. Even if there is a small chance of achieving the higher grade you should dedicate your time to it. Your time to study will only be there for a few months, whereas poker will always be there

[Honeybadger]

Read "treat your poker like a business"

Looking forward to hearing Lil'Dave's views on this one...

[Rexas]

Goals for September

50 HHS
Learn plo starting ranges
80 hours of poker play
20 hours poker study
Read "treat your poker like a business"

Started playing plo and seems like no one has a clue including myself. Also been watching a lot joeingram1 podcasts and even though I'm not the biggest fan of him, plo seems a lot of fun and easier to move up in than nlhe where a lot of people are full time grinders even at nl25/20 which is insane when you think about it. Anyway I really recommend the podcast with lex veldhuis guy's been there and done it and has a lot of stories to tell and still seems to crush online as well which is really cool to me.

As someone that has played a reasonable amount of low stakes plo, and received some coaching and a lot of advice on it, low stakes PLO is not beatable, and in either case is a very, very different game to NLHE. I'm at NL50 at the moment and very much intend to jump into PLO if/when i get to higher stakes, but its just not beatable before then. There's a pretty long 2+2 thread about it and some stuff buried on blonde too. IMO, if NLHE has been your thing, stick with that for now. It's perfectly possible to make a decent living playing NL50.

That being said, some of the most valuable NLHE stuff that I've learnt has come from studying PLO. Highly recommend everything Phil Galfond has ever done about anything.

[tikay]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

yeh have to agree my head does shake a little whenever anyone says to me "Oh you're a poker player, you should have been a stockbroker you'd have made £4.75m by now"

Do what makes you happy mate

Yeah agree a lot. Think the argument of you could have earned x doing this is fairly flawed.

Gonna try and play 120 hours this month and study for 40.

Hope you don't mind me suggesting, but a very obvious thought occurred to me.

You seem resigned to "only" getting a 2:2 - why not reverse those planned hours, & maybe you could get a 2:1 or better? It's only for a few months, & your Degree lasts a lifetime.

As to poker, I'm a big fan of PLO, & the more that play it the merrier, but it is VERY swingy, so tread carefully.

Good luck. 

[AlunB]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

yeh have to agree my head does shake a little whenever anyone says to me "Oh you're a poker player, you should have been a stockbroker you'd have made £4.75m by now"

Do what makes you happy mate

Yeah agree a lot. Think the argument of you could have earned x doing this is fairly flawed.

Gonna try and play 120 hours this month and study for 40.

Hope you don't mind me suggesting, but a very obvious thought occurred to me.

You seem resigned to "only" getting a 2:2 - why not reverse those planned hours, & maybe you could get a 2:1 or better? It's only for a few months, & your Degree lasts a lifetime.

As to poker, I'm a big fan of PLO, & the more that play it the merrier, but it is VERY swingy, so tread carefully.

Good luck. 

THIS

You have no idea how many doors in the future will be automatically slammed shut by having a 2:2 compared to a 2:1

It's ridiculous, but it is what it is. I guess employers have to draw a line somewhere and often that's where they draw it.

[baldock92]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

yeh have to agree my head does shake a little whenever anyone says to me "Oh you're a poker player, you should have been a stockbroker you'd have made £4.75m by now"

Do what makes you happy mate

Yeah agree a lot. Think the argument of you could have earned x doing this is fairly flawed.

Gonna try and play 120 hours this month and study for 40.

Hope you don't mind me suggesting, but a very obvious thought occurred to me.

You seem resigned to "only" getting a 2:2 - why not reverse those planned hours, & maybe you could get a 2:1 or better? It's only for a few months, & your Degree lasts a lifetime.

As to poker, I'm a big fan of PLO, & the more that play it the merrier, but it is VERY swingy, so tread carefully.

Good luck. 

THIS

You have no idea how many doors in the future will be automatically slammed shut by having a 2:2 compared to a 2:1

It's ridiculous, but it is what it is. I guess employers have to draw a line somewhere and often that's where they draw it.

What the 2 before me said!

[cambridgealex]

I feel like I know what you're going through. 5 years ago I was stumbling through university whilst my poker infactuation grew, not enjoying it at all and not inspired by anything in my course. Whilst poker was the polar opposite - a completely compelling game that I just HAD to succeed at. And I was absolutely inspired by the lifestyle that it could bring.

I know that whatever the right thing to do is, you won't listen to any advice here. I had everyone telling me one thing and I knew they were probably right, I should get my degree, but in the end, you're always gonna do what your heart says. My heart was in poker, not my degree. And I dropped out after just over a year.

I'm not the best person to speak to because I got extremely lucky and it's actully looked like being the right decision (or at least the wrong decision that worked out well). 99% of people who took my line would probably be seriously screwed now. And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years. I think my years in poker are seriously numbered, almost certainly <5, and what am I gonna do then? The idea is I'll have enough capital, enough passion, enough contacts, and enough intelligence / life experience to be able to make something else work, but that's all very hazy isn't it?

I would never recommend anyone to try and become a professional poker player. I would recommend being a professional player though!

Basically I think you'll end up doing what you want to do. And I can already see like that's settling for a 2.2 whilst pouring your heart into poker. So advice from all these veteran gamblers, and clever older folk like Tikay will sadly fall on deaf ears.

I wrote to Neil Channing back then and asked him for advice, and the first thing he said to me was "Get the degree!". I thought at the time, yes neil that's good advice, I'll do that, thanks Neil, appreciate that. The heart always rules the brain.

Good luck.

ps. forget all that nonsense about playing GTO in live low stakes cash games. You should basically never be balanced lol.

[baldock92]

I feel like I know what you're going through. 5 years ago I was stumbling through university whilst my poker infactuation grew, not enjoying it at all and not inspired by anything in my course. Whilst poker was the polar opposite - a completely compelling game that I just HAD to succeed at. And I was absolutely inspired by the lifestyle that it could bring.

I know that whatever the right thing to do is, you won't listen to any advice here. I had everyone telling me one thing and I knew they were probably right, I should get my degree, but in the end, you're always gonna do what your heart says. My heart was in poker, not my degree. And I dropped out after just over a year.

I'm not the best person to speak to because I got extremely lucky and it's actully looked like being the right decision (or at least the wrong decision that worked out well). 99% of people who took my line would probably be seriously screwed now. And even the 1% who do get lucky might be fucked in 5 years. I think my years in poker are seriously numbered, almost certainly <5, and what am I gonna do then? The idea is I'll have enough capital, enough passion, enough contacts, and enough intelligence / life experience to be able to make something else work, but that's all very hazy isn't it?

I would never recommend anyone to try and become a professional poker player. I would recommend being a professional player though!

Basically I think you'll end up doing what you want to do. And I can already see like that's settling for a 2.2 whilst pouring your heart into poker. So advice from all these veteran gamblers, and clever older folk like Tikay will sadly fall on deaf ears.

I wrote to Neil Channing back then and asked him for advice, and the first thing he said to me was "Get the degree!". I thought at the time, yes neil that's good advice, I'll do that, thanks Neil, appreciate that. The heart always rules the brain.

Good luck.

ps. forget all that nonsense about playing GTO in live low stakes cash games. You should basically never be balanced lol.

Can I ask, having just finished uni myself and with the poker interest rising all the time, what's your piece of advice for making the next step up in the game? I currently play smaller buy-in live tournaments but have profited fairly consistently over the past year or so.

[Woodsey]

Bear in mind that in the above three posts from Dubai, Arb and Sonour (and earlier too) you are getting advice from people that gamble for a living.  They are very good at it and they know the personal and financial costs of the decision to make it a career so their opinion is worth listening to when they tell you that concentrating on your degree is the best thing for your long term future. I am too and would give you the same advice.  We are all 30+ now and have done this for long enough to now not have a choice and, frankly, if I had my time again I am not sure that gambling for a living was the right decision.  I could certainly have made more money devoting the time I have spent to something else and the opportunity cost of devoting huge amounts of time to gambling at this stage of your life is something you shouldn't underestimate.   You say that if you keep growing with the game you can survive but at 21 is that really your ambition for life?  To survive?  Of course there are some people that make very good livings but they are a very small minority and most professional gamblers I know probably make less than 50k a year which, when you consider the skillsets, education and time devoted is an insanely poor return for people that are close to the top of their profession and even the very best, the Tony Blooms, Chris Moormans, Phil Iveys of this world might have made more if they devoted their time to financial markets or something like that instead of gambling.

^ Read this. Great post. Degrees are so ubiquitous now that it really is the minimum requirement for almost any job.

That said there is this myth in the poker/gambling world that if people had turned their mind to some other career they would be on £100k+ by their early 30s. In my experience the real world just doesn't work like that. Getting a job in any industry is hard work, really hard work for new graduates. And getting ahead, and being a success, is just as much about running good as poker is.

NB: I'm not and never have been a professional gambler, but I've met a LOT of pro gamblers and pro poker players over the years. Many of whom are no longer pro!

Very good post Alun, also when people talk about poker being good experience for other jobs I can't help but smile either.

Off the top of my head I think if you are earning 50k in a job you are in the top 10% of earners in the UK.