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Author Topic: Paris horror attack  (Read 52005 times)
kinboshi
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« Reply #210 on: January 14, 2015, 09:12:14 PM »

The thing is that religion can perpetuate out-dated practices that are retained in a large part because of the presence of the religion in that area.

The Abrahamic religions started a long time ago, and there are customs and practices that are still in evidence where these religions are strong. Practices that have died of elsewhere as man's understanding of the world has progressed.
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« Reply #211 on: January 14, 2015, 09:24:04 PM »

And where it is practiced it is undoubtedly connected to religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

Islam introduced FGM into Indonesia and Malaysia from the 13th century as part of its drive to convert people to Islam

many Christian women are circumcised in Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania believing it to be a religious requirement

Saw a TV program the other day (Panorama maybe?)and they said it's not a religious problem, but an African problem.

Exactly.  The vast majority of the world's Muslims don't practice it, 98% of Somalis do.  They always did even before Islam took over.  It isn't all of Africa either, it is just the bit in the middle.  I don't know the figures exactly, but the UK problem is strongly linked to those of Somali origin. 

The fact some people use religion to justify it doesn't take away the fact it is very much a regional thing. 

Why are you hurting me?

God says I have to

yeah nothing to do with religion.



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« Reply #212 on: January 14, 2015, 09:37:55 PM »

And where it is practiced it is undoubtedly connected to religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

Islam introduced FGM into Indonesia and Malaysia from the 13th century as part of its drive to convert people to Islam

many Christian women are circumcised in Egypt, Kenya, Nigeria and Tanzania believing it to be a religious requirement

Saw a TV program the other day (Panorama maybe?)and they said it's not a religious problem, but an African problem.

Exactly.  The vast majority of the world's Muslims don't practice it, 98% of Somalis do.  They always did even before Islam took over.  It isn't all of Africa either, it is just the bit in the middle.  I don't know the figures exactly, but the UK problem is strongly linked to those of Somali origin. 

The fact some people use religion to justify it doesn't take away the fact it is very much a regional thing. 

Why are you hurting me?

God says I have to

yeah nothing to do with religion.






I've always had the greatest respect for your point of view and the way you present your arguments, but this falls a long way short of your usual standards.

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« Reply #213 on: January 14, 2015, 09:39:57 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

Now it is obviously offensive and distasteful, but how on earth can this be a crime?
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« Reply #214 on: January 14, 2015, 10:04:30 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

Now it is obviously offensive and distasteful, but how on earth can this be a crime?

He's a racist, shit happens to racists

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« Reply #215 on: January 14, 2015, 10:24:03 PM »

Can someone explain why it's deemed ok to offend someone on the basis of their religion, but not on their race?

Surely we can then say we have the right to be racist, 'cos we got freedom of speech Innit'

Broadly speaking, it's the difference between what someone IS, and what they DO.

I think the assumption people make is that religion is a choice, and your race is not a choice.

I'm not sure I actually agree that's the case for many people. I was raised in a church of england school/area, with agnostic parents and I believe that I eventually came to choose to be atheist. When I did, my circumstances meant it was not a big deal and they probably brought me to that decision naturally. However, for someone born in a very religious country with very religious parents and the threat of (at least) social exclusion if they change their religion, I don't think that person has much choice at all about their religion.

Such a tough one. I believe in freedom of speech and in particular freedom of comedy, but I can see why mocking a relgion is considered on a part with racism also.

Something that I, an avowed atheist, didn't really appreciate until recently is how much someone's religion is tied into their cultural identity and how they identify as a person.

I was reading something by an Italian woman, who'd been brought up Catholic by her parents, but then became non-religious and married a non-Italian who also wasn't religious. She was bringing up their daughter with no religious pressure either.

She then found that when the kid stayed with Grandma, Grandma was doing everything she could to indoctrinate the child into Catholicism - reading the kid the Bible, buying children's religious books, taking her to Mass etc. A big row between mother and daughter ensued. Rather than trying to make the child Catholic simply for the sake of Jesus having one more believer, it was more a case that for the Grandma, being a Catholic was so intrinsic to her perception of what it meant to be Italian, that if the child wasn't Catholic, then it was less Italian.

This is obviously going to be much stronger in strict Muslim countries - it would be just about impossible for a Saudi to comprehend the notion of a non-Muslim Saudi, Islam forms such an inherent part of what it means for someone to be, well, them. It would be like imagining a human with no head. So when Muslims hear Islam being criticised, they view it as their intrinsic selves being criticised - they can't disassociate the two, so they perceive it as the same as racism, they're getting shit thrown at them because of who they are. So when they see Jews getting protection from that through anti-racism laws, they get pretty annoyed.

In my younger, more strident days, I would casually think 'why don't more people just wake up to the fact that religion is so obviously bullshit and stop believing in it', and it is pretty easy to think that when you've grown up in a liberal Western democracy. Elsewhere, it requires a bit more of a leap and a lot more risk for someone to do that.
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« Reply #216 on: January 14, 2015, 10:24:51 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

*Nicolas Anelka likes this post*
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The Camel
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« Reply #217 on: January 14, 2015, 10:31:18 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

Now it is obviously offensive and distasteful, but how on earth can this be a crime?

He's a racist, shit happens to racists



Is he attacking the Jewish race or the Jewish religion?
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« Reply #218 on: January 14, 2015, 10:33:53 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

*Nicolas Anelka likes this post*

Smiley

Samir Nasri, Adel Taarabt, Mamadou Sakho shared it.
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Congratulations to the 2012 League Champion - Stapleton Atheists

"Keith The Camel, a true champion!" - Brent Horner 30th December 2012

"I dont think you're a wanker Keith" David Nicholson 4th March 2013
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« Reply #219 on: January 14, 2015, 10:35:27 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

*Nicolas Anelka likes this post*

Smiley

Samir Nasri, Adel Taarabt, Mamadou Sakho shared it.

It would be the first time Taarabt's ever passed anything on.
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doubleup
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« Reply #220 on: January 14, 2015, 10:57:35 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

Now it is obviously offensive and distasteful, but how on earth can this be a crime?

He's a racist, shit happens to racists



Is he attacking the Jewish race or the Jewish religion?

anti-antisemitism is racism
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The Camel
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« Reply #221 on: January 14, 2015, 11:21:20 PM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

Now it is obviously offensive and distasteful, but how on earth can this be a crime?

He's a racist, shit happens to racists



Is he attacking the Jewish race or the Jewish religion?

anti-antisemitism is racism


It just goes to show how ridiculous the whole thing is. Jewish is a race, Judaism is a religion. But the two are inseparable.

If you ridicule the Judaism, you are implicitly being racist.

Why not just offend no one?
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« Reply #222 on: January 15, 2015, 12:12:00 AM »

Dieudonné has been arrested for this Facebook post.

"After this historic march what do I say...Legendary. Instant magic equal to the Big Bang that created the universe. To a lesser extent (more local) comparable to the coronation of Vercingétorix, I finally returned home. You know that tonight as far as I'm concerned I feel like Charlie Coulibaly."

Now it is obviously offensive and distasteful, but how on earth can this be a crime?

He's a racist, shit happens to racists



Is he attacking the Jewish race or the Jewish religion?

anti-antisemitism is racism


It just goes to show how ridiculous the whole thing is. Jewish is a race, Judaism is a religion. But the two are inseparable.

If you ridicule the Judaism, you are implicitly being racist.

Why not just offend no one?

When Christianity had political power they grossly abused it and many Islamic countries are also abusing human rights when they have political power.  That offends me.




 
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« Reply #223 on: January 15, 2015, 12:35:12 AM »

Glenn Greenwald agrees with me about Dieudonné.

@ggreenwald Jan 13

If you want to criminalize ideas you dislike, just be honest. Don't march under a free speech banner http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/12/french-comedian-dieudonne-charlie-coulibaly-prosecutor


i really can't understand how anyone can have strong opinions about any of this except of course the terrorists who did the shooting were scum.

The line between free speech and hate speech and racism is so blurred that is virtually indistinguishable.
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« Reply #224 on: January 15, 2015, 12:41:22 AM »

Glenn Greenwald agrees with me about Dieudonné.

@ggreenwald Jan 13

If you want to criminalize ideas you dislike, just be honest. Don't march under a free speech banner http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/12/french-comedian-dieudonne-charlie-coulibaly-prosecutor


i really can't understand how anyone can have strong opinions about any of this except of course the terrorists who did the shooting were scum.

The line between free speech and hate speech and racism is so blurred that is virtually indistinguishable.

i don't understand what you're mixing up.

Hate(ful) speech if something someone finds offensive.

Free(dom of) speech if the idea that in a proper free society, dissent must be allowed, even if it offends you.

Also, re French comedian - i think he was actually making a very valid point by mixing the name of attacker and victim. Firstly, it's a slight homage to Charlie because they do it all the time (the mixing thing) and secondly he's basically saying 'I don't know what to think, I'm so overwhelmed'
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