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Author Topic: Super stud spot  (Read 4561 times)
POWWWWWWWW
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« on: March 11, 2015, 07:02:34 PM »

Same game as previous thread, I have played super stud once before in a DC mix but shied away from getting involved in any hands as I really don't know what I'm doing and super stud/stud hi/lo is by far my weakest game in the mix.

I open two spades (KT) utg to £7 get 3 callers effective stack sizes £200. Discard the KJ and turn the 4.

Villain 1 turns
V2
V3 3x

I get a
V1
V2 Tx
V3 9

I bet (good?) £22, V1 and 2 call.
I catch a three clubs
V1
V2 K

V1 leads for £50~

Question is do we raise here to protect vs 1 card FD/low from V1 or flat and allow V2 to make mistakes with his obv shitty high only 1/2 pair hands. Or does it not really matter with the PSR. What if we were £350/£500/£1k deep? Really have no clue how to play this game and can't find anything strat wise online so any comments on my play would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 07:04:53 PM by POWWWWWWWW » Logged
rfgqqabc
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« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2015, 07:25:09 PM »

I like calling with this spr we aren't going to protect with this stack size as the money is always going in so try and keep v2 involved seems like the play. Not sure if your really deep, probably just the same as long as v2 can stay involved. We have an absolute monster but v1 has equity we can't get him off imo. See what happens down the streets.
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Ransom
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« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2015, 07:35:08 PM »

If we pot showing three cards to a wheel, we're potentially going to fold out V2 who is just playing for half the pot at this point unless he wants to take two off with (QQ)-J and the up and down straight draw which is what I would think he had seeing as people will bury their pairs and play (KK)-x a bit stronger when people are showing a low upcard. Its likey you and the other villain both have an Ace blocker so I wouldn't mind keeping V2 in when we have the made nut lo and are good to scoop at this point fairly often, but if I was in your shoes then I would be thinking of the following.

If there are enough cards in the deck that the rest of the hand can be dealt without shuffling back in all previously mucked diamons, then get it in here.

If the discards are being shuffled back in on 6th street, then I'm more inclined to just take it slower. First to act changes on the next street anyway if someone pairs up, so we can just go from there. If you pair your 5 and V1 catches the , and V2 catches a 3, we can put them to it for £100 on 6th.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2015, 08:00:27 PM »

Poo. I wrote a fairly detailed reply on my phone and managed to delete it Sad. In the meantime others have posted, so I will not re-write everything I wrote, which was far too verbose anyway.

Definitely just flat at this stack depth; you really want to keep the high hand (JJJ I presume, although some people play some very unreasonable hands at this game like (KK)J or (KQ)J etc) in the pot. Even at a greater stack depth I would still usually just flat too.

Btw, Player 1 has almost certainly made a mistake betting into your board. Some of what I wrote was explaining the two reasons why this is the case, but I am not going to re-write it. Have to keep some stuff to myself I guess...
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Tal
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2015, 09:18:57 AM »

Hi Mr Pow,

The post it note above the PHA threads should always say "Do what honeybadger says". However, I'm interested in this one...

Villain 1 is repping a flush, but we are very strongly repping a wheel if we put another chip in the pot. We've raised after discard, then bet fourth and will raise with 345r exposed. What else are we going to have, with trips so unlikely because of the other exposed cards?

Villain 1 doesn't seem to have much on the low side, where we can scoop if he's only drawing to a blue card. Make him pay?
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UgotNuts
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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2015, 04:04:19 PM »

Shove everytime here. we are looking at spots to be freerolling in superstud and you have made a strong high and Nut low.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2015, 05:53:10 PM »

Shove everytime here. we are looking at spots to be freerolling in superstud and you have made a strong high and Nut low.

We do WAY better not to force the likely JJJ hand out of the pot. I mean, he should fold regardless of whether we raise or just flat ofc... but people play this game very badly and there is a decent chance he won't fold if we just flat. And we want him in. This is even more important given that it is somewhat likely that we will be chopping with V1 (either because he already has a flush or a 6 high straight, or because he is going to have one of those hands by 7th street). The times when  V1 already has you beaten for high you gain massively by keeping V2 in the pot - and your gain is at the expense of both V1 and V2. The times when you are currently scooping versus V2, well it is a bit closer ofc since forcing the trips out makes a scoop more likely. However, you would still prefer the trips to come along since you are locked on for half of a threeway pot with some hope of scooping it, rather than hoping to scoop (but sometimes only chopping) a twoway pot.

EV of flatting here is definitely higher than EV of shoving. And this would be the case even if stacks were deeper. But with them being as shallow as they are it is a no-brainer flat.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2015, 06:46:30 PM »

Just to make the point very clear...

If V1 currently has a flush or a 6 high straight then he would be delighted if we jammed and forced V2 out of the pot. He will be very pleased to get HU vs hero's wheel since he is going to chop the pot with hero. If V2 remains in the pot almost all the equity he loses by doing so GOES DIRECTLY TO YOU! V2 either gets none of it, or very little of it.

If V1 does not currently have you beaten for high then it is, like I said, much closer in EV between flatting or forcing V2 out of the pot by jamming. But the times when V1 does have you beaten for high it is a DISASTER for you if V2 folds.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 06:55:47 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
Honeybadger
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2015, 10:19:27 PM »

I have put together a few hand match ups to illustrate exactly why flatting is far superior to jamming. If you look at these match ups for a while it is clear that you want to keep V2 in the pot, regardless of V1's hand.

First consider what happens when V1 has a made high hand - 23456 for example. If you get it HU vs him then the equities are:

two hearts      50.4%
three clubs Two Diamonds      49.6%

Basically 50/50, although V2 has a miniscule equity edge.

If we are lucky enough to have V2 come along for the ride the equities look like this:

two hearts      31.1%
     20.9%
three clubs Two Diamonds      48%

Basically you are (almost) guaranteed half of a threeway all-in pot rather than half of a HU all-in pot. Your equity is the same as HU vs the 23456, but for a much bigger pot.

So clearly when V1 has a made high hand then you desperately want V2 in the pot. Note that when V2 calls it is bad for V1 - he has gone from having 50% of a HU pot to having 31% of a threeway pot. So V2 continuing is costing V1 money, even though V1 is currently beating V2. This means that when V2 continues every penny of the money he gives up by so doing goes to you... and as a bonus you also get a little bit of V1's money too!


So what if V2 does NOT have a made high hand? Let's give him instead something like two hearts (i.e. a 6 low, a flush draw, and a fuck-you-gutter). Do you prefer it HU vs this hand, or do you want V2 in the pot?

Here are the equities for HU:

    31.1%
three clubs Two Diamonds     68.9%

And here are the equities for the 3way pot:

     21%
     20.6%
three clubs Two Diamonds      58.4%

So it is the difference between having 68.9% of a HU pot or 58.4% of a pot that is close to 50% larger. Clearly you make more money if the pot is threeway.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2015, 10:24:50 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
UgotNuts
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2015, 10:58:56 PM »

Shove everytime here. we are looking at spots to be freerolling in superstud and you have made a strong high and Nut low.

We do WAY better not to force the likely JJJ hand out of the pot. I mean, he should fold regardless of whether we raise or just flat ofc... but people play this game very badly and there is a decent chance he won't fold if we just flat. And we want him in. This is even more important given that it is somewhat likely that we will be chopping with V1 (either because he already has a flush or a 6 high straight, or because he is going to have one of those hands by 7th street). The times when  V1 already has you beaten for high you gain massively by keeping V2 in the pot - and your gain is at the expense of both V1 and V2. The times when you are currently scooping versus V2, well it is a bit closer ofc since forcing the trips out makes a scoop more likely. However, you would still prefer the trips to come along since you are locked on for half of a threeway pot with some hope of scooping it, rather than hoping to scoop (but sometimes only chopping) a twoway pot.

EV of flatting here is definitely higher than EV of shoving. And this would be the case even if stacks were deeper. But with them being as shallow as they are it is a no-brainer flat.
[/quote

Still think you get two calls here by shoving. Seen it too many times. What you say is correct in theory. It just doesn't happen enough.
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Honeybadger
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« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2015, 06:33:02 PM »


Still think you get two calls here by shoving. Seen it too many times. What you say is correct in theory. It just doesn't happen enough.


I don't get what you mean by "it just doesn't happen enough". What doesn't?

You might get V2 to call here if you shove. Then again, you might encourage him to make a good fold. It is definitely much more likely that he calls if you just flat. And as I already explained in detail you really, really, really want V2 to continue. Thus your main strategic concern should be to play in such a way that V2 is as likely as possible to call.

There is pretty much no downside to flatting over jamming, since any player who sees 6th street is committed to the pot given the remaining stack sizes. It's not like you let them off the hook by failing to get all-in right away... the money is going in on 6th street regardless of who catches what, since the SPR is going to be around 0.5 or something like that.

Such a clear flat here that I do not understand your logic, other than "we have a really good hand, let's jam the money in as quickly as possible".
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 06:48:52 PM by Honeybadger » Logged
SuuPRlim
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« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2015, 09:31:49 PM »

Reasons for raising would be to protect and/or get money in before the action can be slowed down.

I dont think either of these are a concern here so I'd just be flatting.

Very bad lead from V1 into your board.  Makes me sort of feel pretty good about our hand.
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UgotNuts
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2015, 12:03:43 PM »


Still think you get two calls here by shoving. Seen it too many times. What you say is correct in theory. It just doesn't happen enough.


I don't get what you mean by "it just doesn't happen enough". What doesn't?

You might get V2 to call here if you shove. Then again, you might encourage him to make a good fold. It is definitely much more likely that he calls if you just flat. And as I already explained in detail you really, really, really want V2 to continue. Thus your main strategic concern should be to play in such a way that V2 is as likely as possible to call.

There is pretty much no downside to flatting over jamming, since any player who sees 6th street is committed to the pot given the remaining stack sizes. It's not like you let them off the hook by failing to get all-in right away... the money is going in on 6th street regardless of who catches what, since the SPR is going to be around 0.5 or something like that.

Such a clear flat here that I do not understand your logic, other than "we have a really good hand, let's jam the money in as quickly as possible".

There isn't any downside to flatting over Jamming, I agree, but I feel this is the same the other way round too. I think both villains call a shove here, and that's why I would shove. What do we do if The trips villain pairs up? Are we going to fold in fear of getting quartered?

Your hand analysis is spot on, and the maths behind it is sound. Just from experience, the human factor will get in the way. I could go into detail as to why... Might post that tonight
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Rexas
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2015, 02:19:33 PM »


Still think you get two calls here by shoving. Seen it too many times. What you say is correct in theory. It just doesn't happen enough.


I don't get what you mean by "it just doesn't happen enough". What doesn't?

You might get V2 to call here if you shove. Then again, you might encourage him to make a good fold. It is definitely much more likely that he calls if you just flat. And as I already explained in detail you really, really, really want V2 to continue. Thus your main strategic concern should be to play in such a way that V2 is as likely as possible to call.

There is pretty much no downside to flatting over jamming, since any player who sees 6th street is committed to the pot given the remaining stack sizes. It's not like you let them off the hook by failing to get all-in right away... the money is going in on 6th street regardless of who catches what, since the SPR is going to be around 0.5 or something like that.

Such a clear flat here that I do not understand your logic, other than "we have a really good hand, let's jam the money in as quickly as possible".

There isn't any downside to flatting over Jamming, I agree, but I feel this is the same the other way round too. I think both villains call a shove here, and that's why I would shove. What do we do if The trips villain pairs up? Are we going to fold in fear of getting quartered?

Your hand analysis is spot on, and the maths behind it is sound. Just from experience, the human factor will get in the way. I could go into detail as to why... Might post that tonight

Little PHA tip, if Honeybadger jumps into a thread and takes the time to explain something, he will have thought of basically everything and he will be right. This guy is comfortably one of the best poker minds around.

Fwiw, as I think has been explained, shoving gives V2 the opportunity to fold which is bad for us. You say you think they will both call, but flatting takes the "think" out of it by giving him as much of an excuse as possible to call. If villain pairs up it's gonna be tricky for us to get 1/4d :p

Also, ty for the explanation stu, fun stuff
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 02:21:55 PM by Rexas » Logged

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UgotNuts
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2015, 05:25:17 PM »

Never said he was wrong, just simply giving my view. Wont bother next time
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