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Author Topic: Hillsborough disaster  (Read 6077 times)
bookiebasher
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« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2015, 02:04:55 AM »

FFS, there's some fucking appalling comments on this thread from people I'd expect far better from.

Seriously, blaming drunk fans without tickets for the death of the 96. You turn up at any football match, rock concert, or any other public gathering and those in charge have a responsibilty. It's like blaming the Bradford fans for not exciting the ground sensibly because they'd had a drink or two, or had entered without a ticket.
I think that's  a terrible comparison .

can't see where anybody has "blamed" drunken Liverpool fans without tickets .

it really is not about blame , it's about contributing factors towards the deaths of 96 people. Not one event caused their deaths. It was a set of circumstances unique to Hillsboro .
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« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2015, 02:15:22 AM »

Agree with u both but we still tend to ignore contributing factors.

To open the gates . Bad decision.

Liverpool  fans with no tickets . Bad decision

Liverpool fans , a minority , drunk . Bad decision .

Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

Herd mentality going through centre isle . Bad decision .

Not enough people in that section realising their actions would  cause injury/death to those innocents who had got there early to get a good position at the front. Bad decision.

More stewards and better stewarding around the 3 tunnels . Bad decision .

Loads of bad decisions led to that horrific day.

That's all I am saying .

The aftermath and cover up was shocking in the extreme and it's really depressing that people want to shift blame , lie , change witness statements ,  make excuses. What's wrong with holding you hand up and saying " I made a bad decision" and suffer the consequences.  

hate to say this but you sound to me like a guy who hasnt been on away days with the lads that many times. Obv everyone has a few beers and thoughts and decisions are compromised. even after knowing what happened i still can't honestly say that if i was there i wouldnt have gone str8 down the centre like most did. If i was down there for the day out without a ticket, and the gates opened i would have thought all my xmas's had come at once and gone in there without a ticket. (never gone to a game without a ticket ever)
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« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2015, 02:28:27 AM »

have to add ive watched every docu on the subject, as a wednesday fan ive been to hillsborough hundreds of times. I think the only thing that caused the disaster was stewards not directing fans to the correct sections once the middle one was full. I saw a while back the alcohol consumption of the deceased and it actually shocked me that only a small minority had more than adequate alcohol levels.
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2015, 02:30:18 AM »

I think people's judgement of what happened  has been tainted by the subsequent police
cover up and it's all guns blazing , 100%  their fault .

You can go with that view , I was there and you are 100% wrong.

I'm not into confrontation , trolling , whatever you want to call it , it's 26 years ago.

I personally want to say what I saw and what I believe we're causal effects of 96
innocent people losing their lives.

Very very sad day , and very sad that people do not own up for there own failings.

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bookiebasher
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« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2015, 02:39:25 AM »

Agree with u both but we still tend to ignore contributing factors.

To open the gates . Bad decision.

Liverpool  fans with no tickets . Bad decision

Liverpool fans , a minority , drunk . Bad decision .

Arriving late at the ground . Bad decision .

Herd mentality going through centre isle . Bad decision .

Not enough people in that section realising their actions would  cause injury/death to those innocents who had got there early to get a good position at the front. Bad decision.

More stewards and better stewarding around the 3 tunnels . Bad decision .

Loads of bad decisions led to that horrific day.

That's all I am saying .

The aftermath and cover up was shocking in the extreme and it's really depressing that people want to shift blame , lie , change witness statements ,  make excuses. What's wrong with holding you hand up and saying " I made a bad decision" and suffer the consequences.  

hate to say this but you sound to me like a guy who hasnt been on away days with the lads that many times. Obv everyone has a few beers and thoughts and decisions are compromised. even after knowing what happened i still can't honestly say that if i was there i wouldnt have gone str8 down the centre like most did. If i was down there for the day out without a ticket, and the gates opened i would have thought all my xmas's had come at once and gone in there without a ticket. (never gone to a game without a ticket ever)

Would you have felt any responsibility towards the deaths of 96 people  ?

Been on plenty of away days , know the score , that's why I know why it was not 100%
the police's fault.
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« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2015, 02:44:38 AM »

have to add ive watched every docu on the subject, as a wednesday fan ive been to hillsborough hundreds of times. I think the only thing that caused the disaster was stewards not directing fans to the correct sections once the middle one was full. I saw a while back the alcohol consumption of the deceased and it actually shocked me that only a small minority had more than adequate alcohol levels.

Well, the majority of the deceased will have got in early and were at the front of the terrace and hadn't been on the lash all lunchtime before the game.

I've been reading accounts and reports all day, and it seems like the number of ticketless fans was a lot smaller than I assumed. (Taylor called ticketless fans an exacerbating factor, not a contributory factor) Guess I've been brainwashed by all the lies and cover ups from the last 25 years.

However, the one fact I couldn't find out was why the crush outside the turnstiles was so intense on this occasion that the police decided to open the gates.

Hillsborough had been holding big matches for decades previously with sell out crowds. (At the 1981 semi final, there were huge traffic james on the M1 delaying Spurs fans for their semi final v Wolves. Many arrived late. Yet the crush wasn't bad enough to open the gates. Once inside there was a crush in the central pen leaving dozens requiring hospital treatment)  What made the crush at Leppings Lane so different that day to any of the previous sell out crowds?
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2015, 02:52:46 AM »

In fact you comments support my arguments , have a beer , go with the flow , authorities will look
after us , regardless of our actions . They should look after us however we behave.

That's what's wrong with society . As I said in a previous post , if that had happened at the Forest end
I would have had a sense of guilt/responsibility at my role in proceedings that day .

We had a min-bus that day , had a few beers pre match , normal  behaviour  , got to the ground late.

Sounds familiar .
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 03:02:09 AM by bookiebasher » Logged
The Baron
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« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2015, 03:12:27 AM »

Just wow.
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« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2015, 05:04:51 AM »

I don't want to appear controversial having very rarely posted on Blonde but I have enjoyed
many hours reading threads on here.
I think some comments on here from bookie should have been deleted.
Imo His opening post wasn't out of line, I do think that his last few replies have
been disgraceful & from what I have read on Blonde appear to be totally
out of character from him
Obviously having been at the game he has a strong opinion on the subject.
I also believe that as a Moderator tightend has let himself down & I feel gave licence
to bookie to further the argument to apportion blame to supporters of Liverpool FC.
It is ridiculous to try and quantify how much ticketless fans, late arrivals & alcohol
consumption was to blame for the deaths of 96 innocent victims.
As I said earlier all these are part of a football supporters daily life.
I have been to games without a ticket, with my Sons who are 15 & 21 both have been going
to Leeds with me for years, my youngest lad supports Chelsea & we have been
loads of Northern clubs & got tickets at the ground, places like Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland.
If I arrived at a game late due to traffic or a few pints In the pub I would not expect anyone to
point the finger of blame at me for the deaths of my fellow supporters.
You might say I've proved your argument as you did of trigg but I'd say this is the real world & you
need to step into it.  
No Liverpool fans were to blame, read the latest report if you don't believe me, it is quite conclusive.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 05:06:31 AM by Domaison » Logged

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tikay
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« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2015, 08:57:58 AM »

I don't want to appear controversial having very rarely posted on Blonde but I have enjoyed
many hours reading threads on here.
I think some comments on here from bookie should have been deleted.
Imo His opening post wasn't out of line, I do think that his last few replies have
been disgraceful & from what I have read on Blonde appear to be totally
out of character from him
Obviously having been at the game he has a strong opinion on the subject.
I also believe that as a Moderator tightend has let himself down & I feel gave licence
to bookie to further the argument to apportion blame to supporters of Liverpool FC.
It is ridiculous to try and quantify how much ticketless fans, late arrivals & alcohol
consumption was to blame for the deaths of 96 innocent victims.
As I said earlier all these are part of a football supporters daily life.
I have been to games without a ticket, with my Sons who are 15 & 21 both have been going
to Leeds with me for years, my youngest lad supports Chelsea & we have been
loads of Northern clubs & got tickets at the ground, places like Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland.
If I arrived at a game late due to traffic or a few pints In the pub I would not expect anyone to
point the finger of blame at me for the deaths of my fellow supporters.
You might say I've proved your argument as you did of trigg but I'd say this is the real world & you
need to step into it.  
No Liverpool fans were to blame, read the latest report if you don't believe me, it is quite conclusive.


I can't agree with that.

He has expressed his view, politely & sincerely.

He has acknowledged that the great majority of the blame sits with the authorities. He just thinks that, in his honest view, the actions of some fans may have contributed to the tragedy. Even if it is only a 1% contribution, it is still a contribution.

It's all terribly emotive, more so for Liverpool fans. That does not mean that genuinely held views cannot be aired.

Tighty let himself down? You may think so, but his replies appeared to be well-balanced, from what I saw. Again, sincerely held views, put respectfully & politely, & acknowledging that the authorities actions were disgraceful.

It seems to be one of those subjects where people are scared to speak their mind, because when they do, it is seen as disrespectful. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 09:01:38 AM by tikay » Logged

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Waz1892
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« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2015, 09:14:56 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense
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tikay
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« Reply #41 on: April 18, 2015, 09:16:15 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault. 

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense


He has not denied that, in fact he has agreed with it.

He just thinks that it was not 100% their fault.
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Waz1892
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« Reply #42 on: April 18, 2015, 09:25:25 AM »

Bookiebasher, as stated previously Taylor, HIP and any other report states very clearly it was authorites at fault.

Daniel has put it perfectly and better than i have, and more direct as i was pussy-footing around trying to not to get wound up or become more abusive.

Your opening post and subsequent discussions genuienly played on my mind all day and I only hope now other comments are being made you'll see sense


He has not denied that, in fact he has agreed with it.

He just thinks that it was not 100% their fault.

Which those reports state it does entirely sit with authorities. I don't believe he does agree, and his comments are wrong and insulting
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bookiebasher
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« Reply #43 on: April 18, 2015, 09:31:04 AM »

I knew I would probably get some stick , the debate has gone ok , respect everyone's opinion.

The real world was far different at football matches in those days.

Far more tribal and aggressive from what you see today.

If I hadn't been there and witnessed those events pre and post match I doubt I could
comment on it with such certainty.

I have tried not to get into the "blame" game , it's negative and not the point I was making.

It really was a unique set of circumstances and many many events pre match led to that
situation where he had a very difficult decision to make in regards to opening the gate.
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TightEnd
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« Reply #44 on: April 18, 2015, 09:31:28 AM »

I don't want to appear controversial having very rarely posted on Blonde but I have enjoyed
many hours reading threads on here.
I think some comments on here from bookie should have been deleted.
Imo His opening post wasn't out of line, I do think that his last few replies have
been disgraceful & from what I have read on Blonde appear to be totally
out of character from him
Obviously having been at the game he has a strong opinion on the subject.
I also believe that as a Moderator tightend has let himself down & I feel gave licence
to bookie to further the argument to apportion blame to supporters of Liverpool FC.
It is ridiculous to try and quantify how much ticketless fans, late arrivals & alcohol
consumption was to blame for the deaths of 96 innocent victims.
As I said earlier all these are part of a football supporters daily life.
I have been to games without a ticket, with my Sons who are 15 & 21 both have been going
to Leeds with me for years, my youngest lad supports Chelsea & we have been
loads of Northern clubs & got tickets at the ground, places like Blackburn, Bolton, Sunderland.
If I arrived at a game late due to traffic or a few pints In the pub I would not expect anyone to
point the finger of blame at me for the deaths of my fellow supporters.
You might say I've proved your argument as you did of trigg but I'd say this is the real world & you
need to step into it. 
No Liverpool fans were to blame, read the latest report if you don't believe me, it is quite conclusive.


Hi, I'll reply too

I don't think i let myself down

I posted a few times on the thread with opinions. My posting some agreement with bookiebasher 24 hours ago does no more or less to legitimise his views than anyone else does. I'm posting as an individual

People are entitled to disagree with them, as you have done.

Even better, you could stick some links up that prove i'm wrong. Happy to read them. 

there's nothing on this thread worthy of deletion imo. In fact the issue hasn't even been raised amongst the mods.

its a terribly difficult subject where the debate on here has been civil.

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