The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[DaveShoelace]

IMO the (Justified) demonising of Tony Blair is blinding a lot of the left to what was actually good about New Labour, most specifically that they won elections by appeal to the centre. It seems like in reaction to Blair, some of the party has responded by moving much further to the hard left, which is what's alienating the majority of the UK centre and giving those votes to the Tories, SNP and UKIP. If Labour want to win the next election, they should be looking at creating New Labour 2.0 (Now with less war mongering) rather than trying to appeal the vocal minority.

[StuartHopkin]

There's an awful lot I dislike about Tony Blair, but there's no denying the New Labour years were a very good time to be bringing up kids on relatively low incomes. Both me and MrsM were working but not earning a great deal, but the tax credits, child support and later the minimum wage were life savers. I'd hate to be at that stage of our lives under this lot.

Personal interest question

Would you be better off with what you got paid then plus the tax credits, child support, or with the imminent £9 minimum wage?

[Doobs]

IMO the (Justified) demonising of Tony Blair is blinding a lot of the left to what was actually good about New Labour, most specifically that they won elections by appeal to the centre. It seems like in reaction to Blair, some of the party has responded by moving much further to the hard left, which is what's alienating the majority of the UK centre and giving those votes to the Tories, SNP and UKIP. If Labour want to win the next election, they should be looking at creating New Labour 2.0 (Now with less war mongering) rather than trying to appeal the vocal minority.

Why is it justified?  He was a very good leader who made one big mistake.  It is plain weird that a Tony Blair criticism is now seen as a positive.

[DaveShoelace]

IMO the (Justified) demonising of Tony Blair is blinding a lot of the left to what was actually good about New Labour, most specifically that they won elections by appeal to the centre. It seems like in reaction to Blair, some of the party has responded by moving much further to the hard left, which is what's alienating the majority of the UK centre and giving those votes to the Tories, SNP and UKIP. If Labour want to win the next election, they should be looking at creating New Labour 2.0 (Now with less war mongering) rather than trying to appeal the vocal minority.

Why is it justified?  He was a very good leader who made one big mistake.  It is plain weird that a Tony Blair criticism is now seen as a positive.

My bad - I should have put 'the (justified) demonising of Tony Blair over the Iraq War'

I'm with you, one bad decision does not a terrible leader make. I do understand why a bad decision that leads to war is more emotive than most though.

[AlunB]

.

Doh! Sorry. Managed to post twice.

[AlunB]

Yes indeed, that Iraq war is a horrendous stain. It's difficult to overstate the scale of his lying and manipulation of parliament & the public in order to take us into war alongside the US. I can't reconcile his actions with his professed religious beliefs, since they are responsible for hundreds of thousands of lives - and still counting.

However, in addition, the whole banking crisis was made easier by Blair & Brown's deregulation of city practises. Leaving the economy on the brink of collapse, and a note reading 'all the money's gone'. He also allowed Gordon Brown to carry out his own personal economic & welfare policies - Working Tax Credits was an absolute shambles for several years, with £billions in overpaid benefits written off, whilst there were £billions owed to legitimate claimants that may never have ended up being paid. Even now it's a complicated and cumbersome (& prob inefficient) method of redistributing wealth.

Finally, the Labour Party during Blair's premiership were also guilty of cynically opening the UK's doors to uncontrolled immigration - simply as a means to increase their own vote. Gerrymandering on a national scale. The price for that folly is going to be paid for the rest of our lives and beyond.

Great game of Cameron election bullshit bingo here.

That letter was an obvious joke btw and it was a complete scandal that Cameron was allowed to use it as fact when he quite clearly knew it was a joke. David Mitchell wrote a very funny column about it.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/david-mitchell-cameron-cynical-art-pretending-not-to-understand-joke
[/quote]

[AlunB]

Really interesting discussion though. Exactly what I hoped might happen. Always interesting to hear how other people view stuff, even those who I strongly disagree with. Doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right.

[AdamM]

There's an awful lot I dislike about Tony Blair, but there's no denying the New Labour years were a very good time to be bringing up kids on relatively low incomes. Both me and MrsM were working but not earning a great deal, but the tax credits, child support and later the minimum wage were life savers. I'd hate to be at that stage of our lives under this lot.

Personal interest question

Would you be better off with what you got paid then plus the tax credits, child support, or with the imminent £9 minimum wage?

certainly better off then. both worked in retail, so hours were very irregular. State was topping us up. The specific figure of £9 isn't transferable, because there's 15 years of inflation to take account of, but our hourly rate, compared to others in the sector would have been reasonable

[rfgqqabc]

The problem with politics "Which suggests he does have a guiding conservative principle after all: to conserve his job, if not his country."

There's no incentive to do the best job, just to please most people who don't really understand.

[TightEnd]

Click to see full-size image.

[TightEnd]

meanwhile, north of the border....

Click to see full-size image.

[AlunB]

Oooooh

Aldi vouchers

[RickBFA]

Tony Blair rues ‘tragedy’ of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn: http://bit.ly/1R9u0FJ  

sure to go down well...

Blair has an almost evangelical Christian like view of his time in power - he is blinkered by self belief. Totally delusional for me.

His leadership was a disaster for our country, certainly when it comes to foreign policy.

Why? I think he was broadly a successful PM with one horrendous stain on his record as opposed to a PM who got everything wrong. Why do you think he was a disaster? If it's just the Iraq war then fair enough no need to elaborate, just wondering if it was more than that.

My judgement is coloured to a point by my natural tendency to be more right wing than left wing when it comes to politics.

I think Iraq was a monumental mistake that has haunted us ever since and will continue to do so.

It created more problems that it solved, killed thousands of innocent people, cost fortunes which could have been spent more wisely, left the region more unstable than before and helped the cause of the likes of Bin Laden and the groups that have followed enormously. They couldn't have asked for a better recruitment sergeant.

What is troubling is Blair's unwillingness to accept that Iraq was a shambles and has cost us dearly. He really is like one of those religious zealots that believe their own narrative even when the truth and reality is staring them in the face.

This is true.

Although I don't agree with your religious analogy. To the point of finding it borderline offensive. But I do get where you're coming from with it. To some people the religious person seem misguided and stupid. That doesn't mean they are.

Back to the original point. Blair gets a very bad rap, and quite rightly so for the reasons you said above. But he did have some fairly considerable successes during his tenure. Not least Northern Ireland.

I wasn't meaning to offend. I agree that a lot of people with strong religious views are very intelligent. To be honest, my mother was one of them. She was very smart and had what was almost blind faith in her Roman Catholic beliefs.

Blair has a similar blind belief that his actions were right. Nothing that is said or other people's views/the way history views his actions will change his belief.

I hope you understand my point.

[AlunB]

Tony Blair rues ‘tragedy’ of Labour under Jeremy Corbyn: http://bit.ly/1R9u0FJ  

sure to go down well...

Blair has an almost evangelical Christian like view of his time in power - he is blinkered by self belief. Totally delusional for me.

His leadership was a disaster for our country, certainly when it comes to foreign policy.

Why? I think he was broadly a successful PM with one horrendous stain on his record as opposed to a PM who got everything wrong. Why do you think he was a disaster? If it's just the Iraq war then fair enough no need to elaborate, just wondering if it was more than that.

My judgement is coloured to a point by my natural tendency to be more right wing than left wing when it comes to politics.

I think Iraq was a monumental mistake that has haunted us ever since and will continue to do so.

It created more problems that it solved, killed thousands of innocent people, cost fortunes which could have been spent more wisely, left the region more unstable than before and helped the cause of the likes of Bin Laden and the groups that have followed enormously. They couldn't have asked for a better recruitment sergeant.

What is troubling is Blair's unwillingness to accept that Iraq was a shambles and has cost us dearly. He really is like one of those religious zealots that believe their own narrative even when the truth and reality is staring them in the face.

This is true.

Although I don't agree with your religious analogy. To the point of finding it borderline offensive. But I do get where you're coming from with it. To some people the religious person seem misguided and stupid. That doesn't mean they are.

Back to the original point. Blair gets a very bad rap, and quite rightly so for the reasons you said above. But he did have some fairly considerable successes during his tenure. Not least Northern Ireland.

I wasn't meaning to offend. I agree that a lot of people with strong religious views are very intelligent. To be honest, my mother was one of them. She was very smart and had what was almost blind faith in her Roman Catholic beliefs.

Blair has a similar blind belief that his actions were right. Nothing that is said or other people's views/the way history views his actions will change his belief.

I hope you understand my point.

I do yes. And appreciate you taking the time to make it.

[titaniumbean]

The problem with politics "Which suggests he does have a guiding conservative principle after all: to conserve his job, if not his country."

There's no incentive to do the best job, just to please most people who don't really understand.

so much this.


Blair was OOL for pushing for war using knowingly false information to misle those he believed he must 'know best'. His attitude since leaving office has been harrowing to say the least, at least he's very well off and has armed guards on every single one of his many properties and can prance about the world talking about peace and democracy and giving his genius insight about how to achieve that.... Justice for all yo.