The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[MANTIS01]

Yep arguments always carry more weight when they’re true

You make an excellent point, you’re not well placed to teach this lesson though. I’m still looking for the study that showed worker output in the NE up 30% when Newcastle win :-).

Think it was on The One Show mate

[BigAdz]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

[kukushkin88]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

They recognise that Britain is divided. I spend loads of time in Europe and loads of my friends here are from France, Spain, Italy. It is the little englander brigade that they despise, they really like the rest of us. (This is only my own experience, so the sample size is too small for meaningful analysis and there’s scope for all kind of observer biases but it seemed worth mentioning.)

[RED-DOG]

Yep arguments always carry more weight when they’re true

You make an excellent point, you’re not well placed to teach this lesson though. I’m still looking for the study that showed worker output in the NE up 30% when Newcastle win :-).

Think it was on The One Show mate

Isn't that about the Queen?

[TightEnd]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

A fairly myopic view that

We aren't despised by Europe.

The EU27 are going to protect their own, not the one that's leaving. In part this is to put off others leaving but genuinely they want to stand by the good friday agreement and the irish government in particular. At no time have they even indicated they would hold Ireland's feet to the fire, and yet still Brexiters talk about renegotiating the backstop. They compromised giving us one in the first place!

They are also sensationally good negotiators, well prepared and the exact opposite of most UK politicians they have been facing the table from (though probably not the civil service, Olly Robbins at least did get a deal, not his fault that people who want Brexit wouldn't vote it through! )

[TightEnd]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports

which polls don't you accept? they are all quoted with sample sizes, dates and margins for error, links to full versions etc

what charts that are posted don't you like? the FT one today? completely factual. if you don't like them find others and post then

what reports are one sided? if you think that the wide range of journalists quoted are one sided (they are collectively providers of the best Brexit content around, hence i post them), put up reports you find

Less of the bleating (xx) more of the counter-argument and evidence to support :-)

[MANTIS01]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

A fairly myopic view that

We aren't despised by Europe.

The EU27 are going to protect their own, not the one that's leaving. In part this is to put off others leaving but genuinely they want to stand by the good friday agreement and the irish government in particular. At no time have they even indicated they would hold Ireland's feet to the fire, and yet still Brexiters talk about renegotiating the backstop. They compromised giving us one in the first place!

They are also sensationally good negotiators, well prepared and the exact opposite of most UK politicians they have been facing the table from (though probably not the civil service, Olly Robbins at least did get a deal, not his fault that people who want Brexit wouldn't vote it through! )

Yo I thought tribalism was breaking down and politicians weren’t sticking to them traditional loyalties

Yet the whole of Europe are looking after their own?

No wonder we get negotiated off the table

[TightEnd]

they are not one and the same

One, voter blocs are breaking down, particularly here the two major parties struggling where voters are binary remain/leave.

Two the EU27 governments (however elected, and plenty are coalitions) look after each other first

They are not inconsistent or mutually exclusive

[Longines]

Any bookies offering odds on the UK still being a member on 1st Nov 2019?

[Sheriff Fatman]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

A fairly myopic view that

We aren't despised by Europe.

The EU27 are going to protect their own, not the one that's leaving. In part this is to put off others leaving but genuinely they want to stand by the good friday agreement and the irish government in particular. At no time have they even indicated they would hold Ireland's feet to the fire, and yet still Brexiters talk about renegotiating the backstop. They compromised giving us one in the first place!

They are also sensationally good negotiators, well prepared and the exact opposite of most UK politicians they have been facing the table from (though probably not the civil service, Olly Robbins at least did get a deal, not his fault that people who want Brexit wouldn't vote it through! )

This is an important point, and not one to necessarily be overlooked, as to why some Leave voters now support remaining in the EU.  It has certainly factored into my thinking since the referendum.

Since the referendum, and during the subsequent negotiation process, we've all had an opportunity to see more closely some of the tangible benefits that EU membership can bring.  A quick, non-exhaustive list would include:

EU solidarity and effectiveness in negotiation - At every stage they've had to get 27 nations to agree with the position adopted.  They've done it each time.  By contrast, we can't get a decisive vote through Parliament either way.
Support of Irish position - The negotiations around the Irish backstop are primarily to ensure that a member state (Ireland) continues to receive the benefits and protections not afforded to a non-member state (UK) post-withdrawal.  We're seeing the value of those protections more tangibly now.
Effective politicians - Barnier and Tusk in particular have been particularly impressive.  The UK representatives have been an embarrassment in general (certainly the public facing ones, not the civil servants operating behind the scenes).  Juncker is the exception on the EU side, and comes across as spectacularly creepy.  However, don't forget that Cameron voted against his presidency back in the day.
The 'unelected bureaucrat' argument has been shot down - we're currently witnessing the process by which everything is ultimately voted for within the EU, and we understand the EU far better than we did prior to the referendum (although we're still generally ignorant of it).
EU Parliament in action - The interactions within the EU Parliament have become higher profile, for those taking an interest.  For example, we've seen the way Farage interacts, openly insulting other MEP's during speeches, in the small amount of time he spends there before walking out.  Contrast that with Richard Ashworth's speech in March (at the time, expected to be one of the final interactions from a UK MEP).  We're heading down the path of interacting with the EU at a Farage level of ignorance as we seek to depart.

Essentially, we've seen the effectiveness of the EU for the first time as someone potentially looking at it from the outside.  That's a view that didn't exist to us prior to the referendum, when no-one really took that much of an interest in it, and it's not a flattering look.  As comparatives go, the EU politicians have been seen to be far more credible and effective than the ones we've elected to our own Parliament.  That's a big hit to the 'sovereignty' argument that we'd be far better off in the sole hands of Westminster when it comes to determining our laws.

[aaron1867]

In all of this, and after two dreadful elections for the big two, I find it amazing that Jeremy Corbyn is still shouting for a GE. Labour & Tories are going to get utterly wiped out, he will be forever remembered as someone who ruined the Labour Party. I just don’t get how he can still keep saying this after a dreadful month.

[TightEnd]

In all of this, and after two dreadful elections for the big two, I find it amazing that Jeremy Corbyn is still shouting for a GE. Labour & Tories are going to get utterly wiped out, he will be forever remembered as someone who ruined the Labour Party. I just don’t get how he can still keep saying this after a dreadful month.

He's a leaver and doesn't want a referendum. He couldn't or didn't want to do a deal with May to get WA4 through parliament. Where else is there for him to go in terms of a policy?

If the Leader of the opposition was a remainer, as we are told 70% of Labour supporters are, then referendum would be their central policy

[kukushkin88]

In all of this, and after two dreadful elections for the big two, I find it amazing that Jeremy Corbyn is still shouting for a GE. Labour & Tories are going to get utterly wiped out, he will be forever remembered as someone who ruined the Labour Party. I just don’t get how he can still keep saying this after a dreadful month.

He's a leaver and doesn't want a referendum. He couldn't or didn't want to do a deal with May to get WA4 through parliament. Where else is there for him to go in terms of a policy?

If the Leader of the opposition was a remainer, as we are told 70% of Labour supporters are, then referendum would be their central policy

We think Labour would be the biggest party if there was a GE now, don’t we? (Nowhere near a majority)

[Longines]

We think Labour would be the biggest party if there was a GE now, don’t we? (Nowhere near a majority)

A GE right now? Brexit Party romps it no?

[StuartHopkin]

We think Labour would be the biggest party if there was a GE now, don’t we? (Nowhere near a majority)

A GE right now? Brexit Party romps it no?

Got to be a big difference between EU elections, effectively meaningless, and voting for Farage as PM!