The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

and first past the post versus PR

Under the UKIP guise the leave vote in 2010 piled up loads of votes in areas, and was second in a lot of seats

Think its a fair call that Labour would be largest party, though of course the Lib dem/remain/anti corbyn vote might be stickier than Brexit's

tricky to say

[Sheriff Fatman]

We think Labour would be the biggest party if there was a GE now, don’t we? (Nowhere near a majority)

A GE right now? Brexit Party romps it no?

Under FPTP, they'd be a minority party with a handful of seats.

Alarmingly, one of Labour or the Tories would produce the PM.  The best we can hope for is that it would be in a hung Parliament.

[MANTIS01]

they are not one and the same

One, voter blocs are breaking down, particularly here the two major parties struggling where voters are binary remain/leave.

Two the EU27 governments (however elected, and plenty are coalitions) look after each other first

They are not inconsistent or mutually exclusive

But a united team does have a significant impact in protecting interests

We couldn’t have been more fragmented...whilst bemoaning the declining prospects of our interests

[TightEnd]

they are not one and the same

One, voter blocs are breaking down, particularly here the two major parties struggling where voters are binary remain/leave.

Two the EU27 governments (however elected, and plenty are coalitions) look after each other first

They are not inconsistent or mutually exclusive

But a united team does have a significant impact in protecting interests

We couldn’t have been more fragmented...whilst bemoaning the declining prospects of our interests

which is true. A leave vote does, in my opinion, mean declining prospects

Nor is it the EU's fault that May went for A50 without a clue what the plan was, didn't seek to build consensus, set red lines where they were, that the UK government sent Davis to negotiate etc etc..most of which cemented declining prospects

too late to do much about that now

[MANTIS01]

Not sure what to say. The decision was made.The non acceptance of it and the failure to unite to look after out interests achieved a less than optimal outcome. It’s like refusing to accept the dog is dead and dragging it’s corpse around the park on a lead. Down Shep, there’s a good boy.

[TightEnd]

Not sure what to say. The decision was made.The non acceptance of it and the failure to unite to look after out interests achieved a less than optimal outcome. It’s like refusing to accept the dog is dead and dragging it’s corpse around the park on a lead. Down Shep, there’s a good boy.

There was never an optimal outcome post vote. That's the point. Just degrees of pain

[MANTIS01]

Not sure what to say. The decision was made.The non acceptance of it and the failure to unite to look after out interests achieved a less than optimal outcome. It’s like refusing to accept the dog is dead and dragging it’s corpse around the park on a lead. Down Shep, there’s a good boy.

There was never an optimal outcome post vote. That's the point. Just degrees of pain

Not true

The optimal outcome post vote was the smallest degree of pain

[TightEnd]

Progress at last. Accepting you voted for pain. Emotional, not rational. Brad would be disappointed.

[MANTIS01]

Short term pain was an accepted consequence of the choice not the objective of it

What was the rational logic behind splitting the country after the choice had been made?

[kukushkin88]

Short term pain was an accepted consequence of the choice not the objective of it

What was the rational logic behind splitting the country after the choice had been made?

There’s never been a credible suggestion that something/anything would be better as a result.

The purpose of splitting the country was just that some people think self harm isn’t the only option.

[TightEnd]

Times/YouGov are reportedly about to publish this Westminster voting intention poll:

LIB DEM 24%
BREXIT PARTY 22%
LAB 19%
CON 19%

Seat result for that with ElectCalculus is:
LAB 202
BREXIT PARTY 139
CON 116
LIB DEM 116

Germane to the earlier discussion

[Mark_Porter]

Click to see full-size image.

Very good

[TightEnd]

Short term pain was an accepted consequence of the choice not the objective of it

What was the rational logic behind splitting the country after the choice had been made?

The country was hopelessly split either way. 52/48 remain is just another set of problems.

As it was with 52/48 leave there has yet to be a solution proposed in 3 years by a leaver that brings any remain bloc on board and there never could be as give or take half the population have never been given a justifiable rationale to suggest even modest short term pain is worth it beyond trite crap like "believe in Brexit" "Brexit means Brexit" "we will negotiate 70 trade deals by leaving date" etc. All bluster and no substance

[RED-DOG]

Proper debating. Watch and learn everyone.

Not sure what to say. The decision was made.The non acceptance of it and the failure to unite to look after out interests achieved a less than optimal outcome. It’s like refusing to accept the dog is dead and dragging it’s corpse around the park on a lead. Down Shep, there’s a good boy.

There was never an optimal outcome post vote. That's the point. Just degrees of pain

Not true

The optimal outcome post vote was the smallest degree of pain

Progress at last. Accepting you voted for pain. Emotional, not rational. Brad would be disappointed.

Short term pain was an accepted consequence of the choice not the objective of it

What was the rational logic behind splitting the country after the choice had been made?

[BigAdz]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

A fairly myopic view that

We aren't despised by Europe.

The EU27 are going to protect their own, not the one that's leaving. In part this is to put off others leaving but genuinely they want to stand by the good friday agreement and the irish government in particular. At no time have they even indicated they would hold Ireland's feet to the fire, and yet still Brexiters talk about renegotiating the backstop. They compromised giving us one in the first place!

They are also sensationally good negotiators, well prepared and the exact opposite of most UK politicians they have been facing the table from (though probably not the civil service, Olly Robbins at least did get a deal, not his fault that people who want Brexit wouldn't vote it through! )

Sensationally good negotiators.........?

Its like when I was 5 and saying I wanted to leave home to my parents

"no"

"why not"

"because we are bigger than you and you will do as you are told" " if you try we will take your pocket money from you and not give you any more, or any sweets"

"ok mum and dad, you are sensational negotiators"