The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[kukushkin88]

The thing I find incredible whilst all the remainers garner hope from polls, charts surveys and one sided reports, is that none fundamentally seem to acknowledge that regardless of the rights or wrongs of Brexit, whenever you see an interview with anyone with European influence, they are slagging us off.

It seems to pass them all by that we are despised and ridiculed by Europe, but it just doesn't seem to matter to them. They will just refer you to another survey or interview.

What do Remainers actually think when they see or read about how poorly we are thought of, or is it just brushed under the, they only hate the Brexiteers, carpet?

A fairly myopic view that

We aren't despised by Europe.

The EU27 are going to protect their own, not the one that's leaving. In part this is to put off others leaving but genuinely they want to stand by the good friday agreement and the irish government in particular. At no time have they even indicated they would hold Ireland's feet to the fire, and yet still Brexiters talk about renegotiating the backstop. They compromised giving us one in the first place!

They are also sensationally good negotiators, well prepared and the exact opposite of most UK politicians they have been facing the table from (though probably not the civil service, Olly Robbins at least did get a deal, not his fault that people who want Brexit wouldn't vote it through! )

Sensationally good negotiators.........?

Its like when I was 5 and saying I wanted to leave home to my parents

"no"

"why not"

"because we are bigger than you and you will do as you are told" " if you try we will take your pocket money from you and not give you any more, or any sweets"

"ok mum and dad, you are sensational negotiators"

I guess negotiating is probably easy when you have all the cards (they’re better even after the allowance for their massive advantage, obvs).

[MANTIS01]

How is not enacting a democratic decision painless

It’s only “pain” if it’s economic right?

[kukushkin88]

How is not enacting a democratic decision painless

It’s only “pain” if it’s economic right?

Democracy is deeply flawed (but better than any of the alternatives). Cameron made a massive mistake, we’ve all suffered as a result.

[Pokerpops]

How is not enacting a democratic decision painless

It’s only “pain” if it’s economic right?

Democracy is deeply flawed (but better than any of the alternatives). Cameron was a massive bell-end, we’ve all suffered as a result.

FYP

[aaron1867]

Just reading all the stuff in the media and Twitter, just makes you realise how much people want a resolution to it all. Yet it won't be until the end of July until we start to see something happen. What is the best resolution?

A general election looks an absolute no-no, unless we are going towards that cliff edge and a NC gets through.

A no deal looks like it will likely get blocked at every single opportunity.

A deal will not get through unless there is significant change and the EU won't reopen negotiations.

A second referendum looks divisive and could send the country into uproar.

The latter still looks the most obvious route. If Labour get behind this & the ballot paper could appease Brexit voters (offering a no-deal), then we could be heading that way.

Is there any other solution? Not the one you want, but instead what you think will happen?

[kukushkin88]

1: Cameron offered a referendum on inflicting massive harm on a country already devastated by austerity (people whose lives were devastated by austerity needed an enemy and immigrants were the enemy of choice).
2: The country marginally voted for catastrophic self harm.
3: Parliament refuses to inflict catastrophic harm on the country.

Doesn’t seem like Parliament are the villains.

[MANTIS01]

Lamenting the system, lamenting the past

No wonder we aren’t arriving at solutions.

As far as self harm goes the obsession with looking backwards is right up there

[kukushkin88]

Times/YouGov are reportedly about to publish this Westminster voting intention poll:

LIB DEM 24%
BREXIT PARTY 22%
LAB 19%
CON 19%

Seat result for that with ElectCalculus is:
LAB 202
BREXIT PARTY 139
CON 116
LIB DEM 116

Germane to the earlier discussion

Good morning all

It is amazing that this is being reported as LD’a would “win” a GE in this scenario (Sky, Daily Express and others), joint 3rd looks like best case.

[kukushkin88]

The numbers do look good for a Lab/Lib/SNP/Caroline Lucas coalition (374 seats). (Con/BP/DUP ~265 seats)

[Woodsey]

  

‘Labour needs a reboot – and it could start with bringing back Ed Miliband’

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/30/labour-reboot-ed-miliband-brexit-corbyn-referendum

[TightEnd]

Lamenting the system, lamenting the past

No wonder we aren’t arriving at solutions.

As far as self harm goes the obsession with looking backwards is right up there

you must be looking for a reaction right?

Looking at the past? An older brexit voter's speciality. Empire, street parties, bunting over the street, "we got through the war we will get through this"

Pining for a world that cannot be recreated is a fair part of the 17.4m vote.

[Mark_Porter]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.

A second referenduum will only tell us what we already know which is the country is split almost straight down the middle by the issue of Brexit"

Hard to disagree with this no?

[kukushkin88]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.

A second referenduum will only tell us what we already know which is the country is split almost straight down the middle by the issue of Brexit"

Hard to disagree with this no?

Yep, I agree and if leave wins again, Brexit doesn’t suddenly become less of a disaster. So I guess it has to be revoke, in spite of the reasons why that is unsatisfactory. I just don’t see who could actually do it though. Just maybe Boris has the chutzpah, he’d certainly enjoy taking credit for the boom that would follow.

[StuartHopkin]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.

A second referenduum will only tell us what we already know which is the country is split almost straight down the middle by the issue of Brexit"

Hard to disagree with this no?

Yep, I agree and if leave wins again, Brexit doesn’t suddenly become less of a disaster. So I guess it has to be revoke, in spite of the reasons why that is unsatisfactory. I just don’t see who could actually do it though. Just maybe Boris has the chutzpah, he’d certainly enjoy taking credit for the boom that would follow.

I voted leave, and would still like to leave, but revoke is the best thing to do now. Someone just needs the chutzpah to do it as you said!

[Sheriff Fatman]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing twice and expecting a different result.

A second referenduum will only tell us what we already know which is the country is split almost straight down the middle by the issue of Brexit"

Hard to disagree with this no?

It is split, yes, but the evidence suggests that the split would now favour a remain outcome which entirely contradicts the 'will of the people' argument that keeps being used.

Consequently, putting this to the test once again seems the only logical way to move things forward conclusively, in whatever direction, but needs to be done so that whatever conclusion is reached is enacted immediately afterwards.  The vote therefore needs to be framed around either an agreed withdrawal agreement or no deal (having both wouldn't be fair, as it would split the leave vote) vs immediately revoke A50.

If there was no consensus as to what should go on the leave side of the ballot, the question would need to be in two-parts.  Leave vs Revoke, with a follow up vote for method of departure (in which everyone would have a chance to vote, even if they were voting to Remain).

I don't see how doing that can be either undemocratic or unambiguous as to what subsequently happens.  It's certainly better than using a General Election as the vehicle to move things forward.