The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

British politics is shamed by racism and bigotry from left and right

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/may/01/parties-let-poison-of-racism-back-into-politics?CMP=share_btn_tw

[nirvana]

I think a lot of posts on Facebook really get on my nerves. The reason for some people to vote OUT is simply because they want less people to come to this country. I don't question people's vote and respect their view points on it all, but this is typical of quite a few people. If you ask them for more reasons, their response would "Oh, erm, and erm, we don't have to send them all that money". They actually don't know what the sum is, either.

Those people who have better reasoning for leaving the EU, then OK fair enough, cast your vote.

But I see things as, are really things that bad for the United Kingdom right now? Is YOUR life really that bad that we you have to vote out, into, whatever anyone says, an uncertain future outside of the EU. Nobody really knows what's on the other side & things aren't really that bad, are they?

I will definitely be voting to stay. For complete security.

Good points Chicken Licken. People are allowed to fear immigration numbers rising and making the vote a single issue thing from their perspective ?

I'm generally happy with the swap freedom of movement entails - we send our old, our fat to hot countries - Europe sends us Doctors, Nurses, Skills and a decent amount  of labour.

So, it seems a good deal but the imbalance in numbers makes it questionable at least and I can understand why people might choose to make this one of the few things they can definitely grasp and do something or nothing about.

I assume uncontrolled immigration from the EU limits our ability (as an individual country) to step up and do more with respect to refuges/asylum seekers from outside Europe.

The 2 may have no correlation in reality but it feels like they are probably correlated

[MintTrav]

Could someone give me some examples of the racism that Jews are suffering in this country? I don't mean stuff that may happen on the internet (which is a recent thing anyway), but in real life. Maybe I have been asleep at the wheel, but I am not aware of ever having witnessed an anti-Jew incident, or hearing about one. I heard of some gang-fights in Manchester a few years ago between Asian and Jewish youths, but I'm not sure if that counts. Apart from that, nothing. If it has been going on, I have missed it. Everyone else seems to be convinced that anti-Jew racism is rampant (though I never heard one of the mention it before this week, including this thread). Can someone help me to understand what are the incidents that are blighting the daily lives of Jews in the UK?

[nirvana]

Could someone give me some examples of the racism that Jews are suffering in this country? I don't mean stuff that may happen on the internet (which is a recent thing anyway), but in real life. Maybe I have been asleep at the wheel, but I am not aware of ever having witnessed an anti-Jew incident, or hearing about one. I heard of some gang-fights in Manchester a few years ago between Asian and Jewish youths, but I'm not sure if that counts. Apart from that, nothing. If it has been going on, I have missed it. Everyone else seems to be convinced that anti-Jew racism is rampant (though I never heard one of the mention it before this week, including this thread). Can someone help me to understand what are the incidents that are blighting the daily lives of Jews in the UK?

There can be anti-Semitism/racism other kinds of bigotries being perpetuated by some, without peoples lives being blighted especially, no ?

When people talk about an example of homophobia and condemn it - it doesn't mean that wholesale gay-bashing is going on or that being gay in the UK has a special level of blightage

[DaveShoelace]

Could someone give me some examples of the racism that Jews are suffering in this country? I don't mean stuff that may happen on the internet (which is a recent thing anyway), but in real life. Maybe I have been asleep at the wheel, but I am not aware of ever having witnessed an anti-Jew incident, or hearing about one. I heard of some gang-fights in Manchester a few years ago between Asian and Jewish youths, but I'm not sure if that counts. Apart from that, nothing. If it has been going on, I have missed it. Everyone else seems to be convinced that anti-Jew racism is rampant (though I never heard one of the mention it before this week, including this thread). Can someone help me to understand what are the incidents that are blighting the daily lives of Jews in the UK?

I think day to day Jewish people are not hugely the victims of what we expect when we think of racism, I might be wrong but I don't think the average Jewish person walks down the street in constant fear.

Where anti-semitism is prevalent in the UK and on the left in general, is in positions of power. The Labour Party obviously and also it's a huge problem in the NUS right now (The NUS have just elected a president with claims of anti-semitism against her and there have been many worrying examples in Academia like the ones Labour have had recently). In most cases, there is an air of conspiracy theory around it, with people making claims that Jewish people control the media, the banks etc. There is also the apologism from people like Corbyn for groups like Hamas, who literally want to destroy Israel. IMO the biggest problem of all is not the specific bigoted beliefs about Jewish people, but the feeling that it is somehow acceptable by people on the Left, that 'it doesn't really count as racism because we are liberals'. On the Left I think most of the cases of anti-semitism started from positions of criticism of Israel's government, which of course should be allowed for anyone to be able to do, but end up becoming bigoted and nasty because nobody seems to be moderating it in these groups.

Day to day it's probably not as bad as the racism other marginalised groups suffer, but when you consider what happened with Hitler, it must be very worrying for Jewish people when they see anti-semitism seemingly condoned by people in power.

[nirvana]

I guess the real issue is that you cannot protest the existence of Israel without being labelled anti-Jewish/racist.

IMO, many on the left would like to protest the existence of Israel (not just the actions of the Israeli Government) whilst not actually being particularly anti-Jewish.

This is pretty hard to do hence the accusations and the convoluted word play of someone like nutty Ken over the last few days

[DaveShoelace]

I guess the real issue is that you cannot protest the existence of Israel without being labelled anti-Jewish/racist.

IMO, many on the left would like to protest the existence of Israel (not just the actions of the Israeli Government) whilst not actually being particularly anti-Jewish.

This is pretty hard to do hence the accusations and the convoluted word play of someone like nutty Ken over the last few days

Same deal with the Islamaphobia debate really, where there is both reasoned criticism of a set of ideas and also horrible bigotry towards muslims as people. In both cases we'll continue to see genuine bigots get away with it and genuine non-racists getting smeared.

[TightEnd]

D'Ancona

Corbyn may not be antisemitic. But is he a real leader? | http://gu.com/p/4tn9f/stw 

[The Camel]

Could someone give me some examples of the racism that Jews are suffering in this country? I don't mean stuff that may happen on the internet (which is a recent thing anyway), but in real life. Maybe I have been asleep at the wheel, but I am not aware of ever having witnessed an anti-Jew incident, or hearing about one. I heard of some gang-fights in Manchester a few years ago between Asian and Jewish youths, but I'm not sure if that counts. Apart from that, nothing. If it has been going on, I have missed it. Everyone else seems to be convinced that anti-Jew racism is rampant (though I never heard one of the mention it before this week, including this thread). Can someone help me to understand what are the incidents that are blighting the daily lives of Jews in the UK?

From that article I linked to the other day..

"The point is, mainstream British Jews – including the 93% who told a 2015 survey that Israel forms some part of their identity as Jews"

That really struck me as remarkable.

I don't consider being British as part of my identity, but I suppose there must be some allegiance deep inside.

But the idea of a country that I don't even live in having some part of my identity, is a complete mystery to me.

Maybe as Freedland says later "On the left, black people are usually allowed to define what’s racism; women can define sexism; Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia. But when Jews call out something as antisemitic, leftist non-Jews feel curiously entitled to tell Jews they’re wrong, that they are exaggerating or lying or using it as a decoy tactic – and to then treat them to a long lecture on what anti-Jewish racism really is."

Maybe non-Jews are unable to understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

[nirvana]

Maybe non-Jews are unable to understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Not sure how rhetorical this is but pretty sure that 90% of Gentiles I know would understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Mostly I know old people though where the aftermath of WWII and events like the creation of Israel are fairly familiar. Maybe amongst the young it's not so clear

[The Camel]

Maybe non-Jews are unable to understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Not sure how rhetorical this is but pretty sure that 90% of Gentiles I know would understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Mostly I know old people though where the aftermath of WWII and events like the creation of Israel are fairly familiar. Maybe amongst the young it's not so clear

If someone called Britain a "terrorist state", would you consider that a ciriticism of the British people, or the British government?

Is calling Israel a "terrorist state" is anti-semitic? Or is it criticism of the Israeli government?

[nirvana]

Maybe non-Jews are unable to understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Not sure how rhetorical this is but pretty sure that 90% of Gentiles I know would understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Mostly I know old people though where the aftermath of WWII and events like the creation of Israel are fairly familiar. Maybe amongst the young it's not so clear

If someone called Britain a "terrorist state", would you consider that a ciriticism of the British people, or the British government?

Because it seems like Jews consider someone calling Israel a "terrorist state" is anti-semitic.

Find it hard answering hypotheticals but from a simplistic point of view and as a Gentile - one is anti-British and one is anti-Jewish.

Such a complex subject but it's hard to consider Jewish perspectives without considering a long historical context and narrative. Jewish persecution is a repetitive strand through most of modern history so I think calling Israel a terrorist state is part of a continuum of Jew hatred and persecution and I'm not surprised Jewish people would feel like this

[The Camel]

Maybe non-Jews are unable to understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Not sure how rhetorical this is but pretty sure that 90% of Gentiles I know would understand the link between Judaism and Israel.

Mostly I know old people though where the aftermath of WWII and events like the creation of Israel are fairly familiar. Maybe amongst the young it's not so clear

If someone called Britain a "terrorist state", would you consider that a ciriticism of the British people, or the British government?

Because it seems like Jews consider someone calling Israel a "terrorist state" is anti-semitic.

Find it hard answering hypotheticals but from a simplistic point of view - one is anti-British and one is anti-Jewish.

I honestly don't believe the people who are being accused of anti semitism believe they are prejudiced against Jews.

They just don't realise what they are saying/doing is is offensive.

[MintTrav]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

[nirvana]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

You're making the point that was reviewed and picked apart in the link Camel posted. You're probably anti Jewish tbf, not that I care.