The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[MintTrav]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

You're making the point that was reviewed and picked apart in the link Camel posted. You're probably anti Jewish tbf, not that I care.

Thank you. I'll resist the temptation to respond with my view of what you probably are, and just congratulate you on your excellent insight and analysis (lol!).

[The Camel]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

You're making the point that was reviewed and picked apart in the link Camel posted. You're probably anti Jewish tbf, not that I care.

Thank you. I'll resist the temptation to respond with my view of what you probably are, and just congratulate you on your excellent insight and analysis (lol!).

Agree with what nirvana said.

If women are trusted to define sexism, if black people are trusted to define racism and Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia, why aren't Jews allowed to tell us what anti-semitism is?

[nirvana]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

You're making the point that was reviewed and picked apart in the link Camel posted. You're probably anti Jewish tbf, not that I care.

Thank you. I'll resist the temptation to respond with my view of what you probably are, and just congratulate you on your excellent insight and analysis (lol!).

Haha, cheers and remember, the main culprit in all this is Cameron

[Karabiner]

I don't feel that all anti-Israel comments are necessarily anti-semitic.

I've never supported Israel's right-wing Likud party and even less so Netanyahu, and I have criticised them both many times. Does that mean that I am anti-semitic?

That is not as foolish a question as it may seem at first as I have known several Jews who were anti-semites.

[doubleup]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

You're making the point that was reviewed and picked apart in the link Camel posted. You're probably anti Jewish tbf, not that I care.

Thank you. I'll resist the temptation to respond with my view of what you probably are, and just congratulate you on your excellent insight and analysis (lol!).

Agree with what nirvana said.

If women are trusted to define sexism, if black people are trusted to define racism and Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia, why aren't Jews allowed to tell us what anti-semitism is?

Whether minorities define discrimination or not is irrelevant in practical terms.  Their issue is only resolved when the majority agree that the behaviour in question should cease.

[The Camel]

I don't feel that all anti-Israel comments are necessarily anti-semitic.

I've never supported Israel's right-wing Likud party and even less so Netanyahu, and I have criticised them both many times. Does that mean that I am anti-semitic?

That is not as foolish a question as it may seem at first as I have known several Jews who were anti-semites.

There's a difference between criticising the Israeli government and Israel as a country though, isn't there?

That, I think, is where the problem is here. I doubt very much people like Ken Livingstone, Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn are racist in the traditional way. But their statements which they might think are criticising the Israeli governemnt are taken by some (many?) Jews as attacking the Jewish race.

Livingstone and the rest might well object to the existence of Israel, but that's tough luck. It's been here 70 years, it aint going nowhere.

[Jon MW]

I don't feel that all anti-Israel comments are necessarily anti-semitic.

I've never supported Israel's right-wing Likud party and even less so Netanyahu, and I have criticised them both many times. Does that mean that I am anti-semitic?

That is not as foolish a question as it may seem at first as I have known several Jews who were anti-semites.

There's a difference between criticising the Israeli government and Israel as a country though, isn't there?

That, I think, is where the problem is here. I doubt very much people like Ken Livingstone, Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn are racist in the traditional way. But their statements which they might think are criticising the Israeli governemnt are taken by some (many?) Jews as attacking the Jewish race.

Livingstone and the rest might well object to the existence of Israel, but that's tough luck. It's been here 70 years, it aint going nowhere.

The last bit is what confuses me - I think it's perfectly valid to argue the pro's and con's of forming the country, but it's clearly an academic argument. I don't quite see the relevance of doing so now outside of general historical debate - or to mask some underlying racism.

Usually when people criticise a country they're actually criticising their government and I think their is a danger that some (many?) Jews perceive an attack on Israel as an attack on Jews and over react in a way John suggested above; but on the other hand their are plenty of smart people who know they shouldn't be anti semitic so they hide it by pretending it's only disapproval of Israel.

Giles Coren made in interesting statement on the matter - he said, "Ken hates Jews because he hates Israel, which I think is in some ways excusable. The NUS hates Israel because it hates Jews, which is not." I thought that was interesting because it's probably true that some people who aren't (in general) anti semitic might end up with vaguely racist notions of Jews because of how bad the government is there in much the same way that people might develop a prejudice against Islam because of groups like ISIS. Plus it shows how vague and ambiguous the matter is and really highlights how difficult it is to really know how good/bad individuals involved are being.

[The Camel]

I don't feel that all anti-Israel comments are necessarily anti-semitic.

I've never supported Israel's right-wing Likud party and even less so Netanyahu, and I have criticised them both many times. Does that mean that I am anti-semitic?

That is not as foolish a question as it may seem at first as I have known several Jews who were anti-semites.

There's a difference between criticising the Israeli government and Israel as a country though, isn't there?

That, I think, is where the problem is here. I doubt very much people like Ken Livingstone, Diane Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn are racist in the traditional way. But their statements which they might think are criticising the Israeli governemnt are taken by some (many?) Jews as attacking the Jewish race.

Livingstone and the rest might well object to the existence of Israel, but that's tough luck. It's been here 70 years, it aint going nowhere.

The last bit is what confuses me - I think it's perfectly valid to argue the pro's and con's of forming the country, but it's clearly an academic argument. I don't quite see the relevance of doing so now outside of general historical debate - or to mask some underlying racism.

Usually when people criticise a country they're actually criticising their government and I think their is a danger that some (many?) Jews perceive an attack on Israel as an attack on Jews and over react in a way John suggested above; but on the other hand their are plenty of smart people who know they shouldn't be anti semitic so they hide it by pretending it's only disapproval of Israel.

Giles Coren made in interesting statement on the matter - he said, "Ken hates Jews because he hates Israel, which I think is in some ways excusable. The NUS hates Israel because it hates Jews, which is not." I thought that was interesting because it's probably true that some people who aren't (in general) anti semitic might end up with vaguely racist notions of Jews because of how bad the government is there in much the same way that people might develop a prejudice against Islam because of groups like ISIS. Plus it shows how vague and ambiguous the matter is and really highlights how difficult it is to really know how good/bad individuals involved are being.

From an academic point of view, sure - debate all you like.

But it is just as relevant as debating the existence of the USA, Australia or South Africa.

[MintTrav]

It seems to me that there are some Jews who are paranoid about anti-semitism and are permanently on the lookout for things to be offended by. They seem ready to call anti-semitism at any opportunity, most of which are false claims. I have heard many claims of anti-semitism, which almost always appear to me to be nothing of the kind.

You're making the point that was reviewed and picked apart in the link Camel posted. You're probably anti Jewish tbf, not that I care.

Thank you. I'll resist the temptation to respond with my view of what you probably are, and just congratulate you on your excellent insight and analysis (lol!).

Agree with what nirvana said.

If women are trusted to define sexism, if black people are trusted to define racism and Muslims are trusted to define Islamophobia, why aren't Jews allowed to tell us what anti-semitism is?

Not really sure if I agree or not with the point you are making. Can any group decide that it is offended by something, and therefore everyone else has to work around that? Is there a limit to how far you go with that? What if the views of that group are offensive to others? What if society in general disagrees that the aspect it is offended by should be offensive to it, or if the thing it objects to is thought trivial by everyone else?

On a slightly related point, if I decide that I am offended by nirvana calling me a racist, is that enough for him to be deemed offensive?

[RickBFA]

Interesting stuff about Isreal.

I have no axe to grind and think Isreal has every right to defend itself.

I think the way they go about it is at times misguided and overly defensive (perhaps understand with its history).

Does that view make me anti-Semitic?

I don't think so.

[doubleup]

Also there are a sizeable caucus who don't object in the least to Israel, but do strongly object to their policy in the occupied territories.  Russia was slammed by the USA for annexing Crimea and invading east Ukraine, but Israel can pretty much do what it likes and the USA doesn't do much. 

[Karabiner]

Also there are a sizeable caucus who don't object in the least to Israel, but do strongly object to their policy in the occupied territories.  Russia was slammed by the USA for annexing Crimea and invading east Ukraine, but Israel can pretty much do what it likes and the USA doesn't do much. 

There is a difference though:

Unlike Russia, Israel is surrounded almost completely by neighbours who's agenda is to exterminate them, and defendable borders such as rivers and mountain ranges are paramount to the country's security.

I would like to clarify that I am generally against the Likud government's policy of building townships in the occupied territories.

[PokerBroker]

Ken is an eejit.  One can be anti Zionist without being antisemite.  Look at the ambassador on Marr on Sunday he was clearly peddling the myth that both are the same. 

I like this from the Jewish Socialist Group:

From the Jewish Socialists’ Group

Posted: 28 April 2016

Antisemitism exists and must be exposed and fought against in the same way as other forms of racism by all who are concerned with combating racism and fascism.

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same. Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative. Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews.

Criticism of Israeli government policy and Israeli state actions against the Palestinians is not antisemitism. Those who conflate criticism of Israeli policy with antisemitism, whether they are supporters or opponents of Israeli policy, are actually helping the antisemites. We reject any attempt, from whichever quarter, to place legitimate criticism of Israeli policy out of bounds.

Accusations of antisemitism are currently being weaponised to attack the Jeremy Corbyn-led Labour party with claims that Labour has a “problem” of antisemitism. This is despite Corbyn’s longstanding record of actively opposing fascism and all forms of racism, and being a firm a supporter of the rights of refugees and of human rights globally.

A very small number of such cases seem to be real instances of antisemitism. Others represent genuine criticism of Israeli policy and support for Palestinian rights, but expressed in clumsy and ambiguous language, which may unknowingly cross a line into antisemitism. Further cases are simply forthright expressions of support for Palestinian rights, which condemn Israeli government policy and aspects of Zionist ideology, and have nothing whatsoever to do with antisemitism.

The accusations do not refer to antisemitic actions but usually to comments, often made on social media, long before Jeremy Corbyn won the Labour leadership. Those making the charges now, did not see fit to bring them up at the time, under previous Labour leaders, but are using them now, just before mayoral and local elections, when they believe they can inflict most damage on the Labour Party led by Jeremy Corbyn.

The attack is coming from four main sources, who share agendas: to undermine Jeremy Corbyn as leader of Labour; to defend Israeli government policy from attack, however unjust, racist and harmful towards the Palestinian people; and to discredit those who make legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy or Zionism as a political ideology. As anti-racist and anti-fascist Jews who are also campaigning for peace with justice between Israelis and Palestinians, we entirely reject these cynical agendas that are being expressed by:

• The Conservative Party

• Conservative-supporting media in Britain and pro-Zionist Israeli media sources

• Right-wing and pro-Zionist elements claiming to speak on behalf of the Jewish community

• Opponents of Jeremy Corbyn within the Labour party.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group recognises that ordinary Jewish people are rightly concerned and fearful about instances of antisemitism. We share their concerns and a have a proud and consistent record of challenging and campaigning against antisemitism. But we will not support those making false accusations for cynical political motives, including the Conservative Party, who are running a racist campaign against Sadiq Khan, and whose leader David Cameron has referred to desperate refugees, as “a swarm” and “a bunch of migrants”. The Conservative Party demonstrated their contempt for Lord Dubs, a Jewish refugee from Nazism, when they voted down en masse an amendment a few days ago to allow 3,000 child refugees into Britain while Labour, led by Jeremy Corbyn, gave total support to Lord Dubs and his amendment.

The Jewish Socialists’ Group sees the current fearmongering about antisemitism in the Labour Party for what it is – a conscious and concerted effort by right-wing political forces to undermine the growing support among Jews and non-Jews alike for the Labour Party leadership of Jeremy Corbyn, and a measure of the desperation of his opponents.

We stand against antisemitism, against racism and fascism and in support of refugees. We stand for free speech and open debate on Israel, Palestine and Zionism.

anti-zionism-is-not-anti-semitism-2

[Karabiner]

Excellent post sir.

Unfortunately many people that I know, some of whom are highly intelligent, are not even aware that there is a difference between Israelis and Jews, seemingly believing that the two words are interchangeable, let alone getting a grasp on right and left-wing Jewish/Israeli politics.

[The Camel]

Excellent post sir.

Unfortunately many people that I know, some of whom are highly intelligent, are not even aware that there is a difference between Israelis and Jews, seemingly believing that the two words are interchangeable, let alone getting a grasp on right and left-wing Jewish/Israeli politics.

Are you a Zionist Ralph?