blonde poker forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
June 05, 2024, 12:56:19 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
2272886 Posts in 66759 Topics by 16723 Members
Latest Member: callpri
* Home Help Arcade Search Calendar Guidelines Login Register
+  blonde poker forum
|-+  Community Forums
| |-+  The Lounge
| | |-+  The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged
0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

Pages: 1 ... 195 196 197 198 [199] 200 201 202 203 ... 1533 Go Down Print
Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2226294 times)
TightEnd
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: I am a geek!!



View Profile
« Reply #2970 on: June 21, 2016, 02:53:12 PM »

the map of britains leave vote according to you gov

blue = leave

red = stay etc

 Click to see full-size image.

Logged

My eyes are open wide
By the way,I made it through the day
I watch the world outside
By the way, I'm leaving out today
TightEnd
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: I am a geek!!



View Profile
« Reply #2971 on: June 21, 2016, 02:54:44 PM »

on a knife edge

 Click to see full-size image.
Logged

My eyes are open wide
By the way,I made it through the day
I watch the world outside
By the way, I'm leaving out today
TightEnd
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: I am a geek!!



View Profile
« Reply #2972 on: June 21, 2016, 03:02:30 PM »

 Click to see full-size image.
Logged

My eyes are open wide
By the way,I made it through the day
I watch the world outside
By the way, I'm leaving out today
TightEnd
Administrator
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: I am a geek!!



View Profile
« Reply #2973 on: June 21, 2016, 03:04:28 PM »

more yougov

 Click to see full-size image.
Logged

My eyes are open wide
By the way,I made it through the day
I watch the world outside
By the way, I'm leaving out today
Longines
Gamesmaster
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 3798


View Profile
« Reply #2974 on: June 21, 2016, 03:33:48 PM »

The 5% of UKIP voters who are Remainers have got to be an interesting bunch.
Logged
DMorgan
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 4449



View Profile
« Reply #2975 on: June 21, 2016, 03:34:46 PM »

George Soros - 'It is reasonable to assume, given the expectations implied by the market pricing at present, that after a Brexit vote the pound would fall by at least 15%. If sterling fell to this level, then ironically one pound would be worth about one euro – a method of “joining the euro” that nobody in Britain would want.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/20/brexit-crash-pound-living-standards-george-soros

Does Mr Soros hold a long or a short position? Cheesy
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 03:36:21 PM by DMorgan » Logged

strak33
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 830


View Profile
« Reply #2976 on: June 21, 2016, 03:49:12 PM »

Number 9 on 10 reasons why George Soros is dangerous.

9.  Currency manipulation:  A large part of Soros’ multibillion-dollar fortune has come from manipulating currencies.  During the 1997 Asian financial crisis, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad accused him of bringing down the nation’s currency through his trading activities, and in Thailand he was called an “economic war criminal.”  Known as “The Man who Broke the Bank of England,” Soros initiated a British financial crisis by dumping 10 billion sterling, forcing the devaluation of the currency and gaining a billion-dollar profit.
Logged
Doobs
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16591


View Profile
« Reply #2977 on: June 21, 2016, 03:59:53 PM »

Number 9 on 10 reasons why George Soros is dangerous.

9.  Currency manipulation:  A large part of Soros’ multibillion-dollar fortune has come from manipulating currencies.  During the 1997 Asian financial crisis, Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir bin Mohamad accused him of bringing down the nation’s currency through his trading activities, and in Thailand he was called an “economic war criminal.”  Known as “The Man who Broke the Bank of England,” Soros initiated a British financial crisis by dumping 10 billion sterling, forcing the devaluation of the currency and gaining a billion-dollar profit.

Guess there are more than two ways of looking at everything.   
Logged

Most of the bets placed so far seem more like hopeful punts rather than value spots
dakky
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 508


View Profile
« Reply #2978 on: June 21, 2016, 05:27:05 PM »

Question

If one has been consuming information and arguments from both sides, with as open minded an approach as possible, and has come to the conclusion that they are still undecided, would the correct response be to A) Not vote B) Vote remain because you have not been persuaded to leave?

Try not to throw your own opinion either way on what Britain should do, just on whether not voting is the same as an expression of wishes to remain.


not vote because you haven't been swayed by remain seems logical.

Had this debate with Sophie (who is in this situation) last night and argued that the best option was to spoil a ballot paper, as that would at least be counted within turnout and would be her exercising a democratic right not to go with either side.


I feel that you should for remain. The reason being that you are accepting the status quo, are happy enough (or not convinced that the alternative is worse.) If you don't vote then you are effectively voting to leave in my opinion, as all the brexiters will certainly vote, but the status-quoers aren't certain to.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 05:49:11 PM by dakky » Logged
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #2979 on: June 21, 2016, 07:01:20 PM »


As a Remainista, can you tell me why we should remain without citing all the disasters that will befall us if we leave? Give me some positives about the EU.



This is what has been so disheartening about the whole campaign from Remain. There has been barely any focus on making a positive case for EU membership from Cam & Co but thats what happens when you crave the support of the Murdoch press (not that they are the only ones) that keeps its readers on a steady diet of negative stories about the EU for going on 20 years. They've painted themselves into a corner and are now forced to fight fire with fire. I would have expected maybe one of the newer Tory MPs that had a more clean rap sheet with regards to views on the EU to be asked to step out and make the positive case. Tighty has mentioned on here that the Tory party membership is strongly anti-EU but I don't know if that goes deep enough to frighten MPs away from making the positive case lest in jeopardize their career in the party. Labour might as well be a telegraph pole on Downing Street at the moment so no dice there.

The positive case for me is all about cooperation, what has been and what can be achieved as a bloc. The free movement of people has been a great experience for me personally having lived and 'worked' in a couple of different places in Europe and the opportunity to do so in the future is a great source of optimism. Sheffield has a ton of EU nationals working and studying. Meeting people both at home and abroad with shared experiences of seizing the opportunity to experience new things and new places has been an overwhelmingly positive development. EU nationals here and UK nationals abroad just loving what freedom of movement has allowed them to do and I don't want to cut ourselves off from that. Personally it doesn't really make a difference to me because my dad is Scottish so if Leave win and Scotland have another indy referendum I would get dual Scottish/UK citizenship and still be able to enjoy freedom of movement, but for a lot of people that I know that wouldn't be the case and nobody knows what their situation will be in the event of a Leave win.

Legislation that has been secured at the EU level maintaining the highest standards in the world of employment rights ,consumer protection, environmental protection and human rights is a fantastic achievement that has a real effect on peoples lives gets blown wide open. What stays and what goes? The only answer from the Leave campaign that I have seen is 'we'll keep the good bits and chuck the rest'. Who gets to decide what goes where? Whoever is leading exit negotiations? Parliament? the Judiciary? In all of this confusion and uncertainty we can be sure there the big money interests will throw significant lobbying power behind the watering down of these protections and history suggests that they'll come out with pretty decent results.

Those legislative achievements give me reasons to be optimistic about how as a bloc we can tackle the problems that know no borders like tax evasion, increased antibiotic resistance and yes the T word. Sharing information and pooling resources on these common issues that aren't going anywhere no matter what the result is must be more powerful weapons than any one state can muster alone.

If you'll allow me to dip into the negatives for my final point because this is the thing that most concerns me. What does the UK political landscape look like after a Leave win? I'm no fan of Dave & George but if the alternative is Boris and Gove riding to number 10 on the back of the right of the party that bristles with confidence is a scary prospect, especially with parliament fixed until 2020. Whilst there is a left wing case for leaving the EU, it will certainly be the right and the hard right that will be spurred on in the event of a Leave vote and not just in the UK. Europe rejected nationalism and protectionism 70 years ago and imo is a much richer (economically and culturally) place for it. If we choose to leave the EU it is imo a step backwards, closer to the tensions of the past. Talk of world war 3 and wholesale destabilization in Europe is overly strong, but if we think about what the path to those situations might look like, a renaissance for nationalism and isolationism is a necessary step on that path.

Quote
I don't believe that our membership of the EU can ever be anything other than wasteful. It wastes our time and our resources. It wastes our money. It is an unnecessary additional level of beaurocracy.

The trouble that I have with this position David is that for it to be true so many people have to be so wildly wrong. Like in any situation where we have incomplete information I find a range-based approach useful. On the evidence available I just can't put 'nothing but wasteful' into that range, can I? I mean its not impossible and I could certainly be convinced that EU membership is a net negative in economic terms though I haven't seen a credible case for that (despite asking many times in this thread Tongue) so it seems unlikely. So I land on the EU being somewhere between slightly bad and very good. I can imagine an interpretation where the EU isn't very good value in its current form and people want to vote to leave, or where people just don't know enough to make a decision and could come down either way, or where the EU is viewed as a positive and we should stay, but the evidence to support a view that the EU is abhorrent and is incapable of being anything but....I just don't get it.

Apologies if this seems like I'm rounding on you for holding a different view but it is out of genuine interest not a flame war. If you're going to the WPT at DTD in October we can reassess over a beer Cheesy

I could go on about the last point (my vision for the EU if we stay) but I've been writing this post on and off for nearly 3 hours, time to hit the hay.

Good post Morgan.

A couple of fundamentals I can't resolve as a Brexit supporter...

a) Collaboration. The remain campaign have laboured this point, this power of the bloc, and focussed on scary economic and security issues. But why can't we continue to collaborate? If something is mutually beneficial why on earth would you not continue to do that thing? Seems spiteful and self-defeating. I don't rightly care what deal Switzerland have or whatever because they aren't one of the major world economies. Why can't we cut a good deal for ourselves? Sure thing a shit hot charismatic PM would really help matters in this regard!

If we consider Britain will be forced to explore further afield and do business in new markets why can't we deliver entrepreneurism and progress and make a net economic gain on our current financial situation? We are Great Britain and I really think we have significant attributes which make us an attractive partner to any country. When the remain campaign pitch doom and gloom it makes me cringe and again seems self-defeating. This is before we talk about terror because the concept of not sharing info that defeats terror is complete rhubarb. 

The only answer I've heard is to prevent other countries leaving the EU. Gestapo attitude imo!

b) Immigration - Obv the major issue here and rightly so. Breaks down into two areas. First, I can't get over the concept that there are talented doctors, surgeons, teachers etc sitting in India who can't bring their skills to our country yet unskilled economic migrants can simply walk in. If you manage a football team, you sign the best players, the team plays well. It's not about race, it's about skill set. Also as British people our attitude to the world is...we really believe in equality, honestly, but geography comes first. Feels nasty.

As an employer I have a whole bunch of different EU peoples on my team, it's a really attractive proposition. When people arrive in a country purely to work they usually have a high work ethic and are a great investment. So local labour gets displaced....and goes where? Prob onto the dole moaning about how people are coming over stealing jobs etc. Yet they are still on the dole and we still have to pay for that. The more we fight for a higher min wage the more this cycle will continue as the UK becomes more attractive to economic migrants. The problem is compounded because local labour work to sustain social lives and so plough that dollar straight back into the economy but the economic migrants send it home. Struggle to see how this is better for British people, particularly students who rely on this type of employment to fund their degrees.

Most pertinent tho is the strain on public services. With net migration reaching all time highs and no controls in place do we have the infrastructure in place or the planned investment in place to cope? Clearly we do not. Most people, myself included, can't figure out how pouring a pint into a half pint pot works in a society. School places for the kids, getting to see a doctor when sick, your mum having that operation in good order are all vital elements of British life. This is why economic arguments lack punch because folk would prefer a pound less in their pocket so they have an enriched quality of life.

Oh and I guess c) Laws...but that's been talked to death so whatever. What's certain tho is the campaign strategy from both sides has been the work of ignorant dullards all round and I think we'll all be glad when it's over..
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
Karabiner
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22750


James Webb Telescope


View Profile
« Reply #2980 on: June 21, 2016, 07:28:18 PM »

I was all set to vote brexit until the last few days and Farage's odious antics.

I am loathe to do anything which feels like supporting UKIP and a brexit vote feels more like that than it ever did, although I was somewhat worried from the outset about siding with any outfit that had Farage and Galloway as figureheads; Boris gave them credibility in my eyes until the last few days.

I think I'm now in agreement with Curtis, and that spoiling a ballot-paper to demonstrate my disgust at both campaigns is the way to go.
Logged

"Golf is deceptively simple and endlessly complicated. It satisfies the soul and frustrates the intellect. It is at the same time maddening and rewarding and it is without a doubt the greatest game that mankind has ever invented." - Arnold Palmer aka The King.
david3103
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6104



View Profile
« Reply #2981 on: June 21, 2016, 08:24:50 PM »

This appeared on my FB page today

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/974597272638514/

The video was produced by a tiny French political movement with less credibility than The Monster Raving Loony Party.

The comments are laughable at best, awful at worst. Including a number of posts from people who believe that the vote will be rigged. Paranoid xenophobia, what next?

Makes me wish I hadn't declared my views. I really don't want to be associated with this crap.

Just for giggles though, leaveeu has it's in Catbrain Lane.
Logged

It's more about the winning than the winnings

5 November 2012 - Kinboshi says "Best post ever on blonde thumbs up"
nirvana
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7804



View Profile
« Reply #2982 on: June 21, 2016, 08:54:42 PM »

It'll be a disaster if the UK pro players can't go and ply their trade and pay their taxes in a lower cost country
Logged

sola virtus nobilitat
PokerBroker
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1189



View Profile
« Reply #2983 on: June 21, 2016, 09:33:51 PM »

I am conflicted by all these statographs that lable the voters.  

By the sounds of it, I am the stereotypical Remain voter but from the little research I have done and from looking at how the EU have treated other countries I am in the out camp.  

I'm educated to degree level, in the 25 - 34 age group, Earn ~£50k p/a, Live in Scotland voted SNP/Greens at Scottish Election voted SNP at UK election, would consider myself to be left of centre probably verging on left, Live in Scotland and own my own house.  

Anyone who has asked my opinion has been given my views.  To me this as much about class as anything else, and the debate has been dominated by two shades of blue.  

I have said before and will continue to say it, there is a genuine case for left leaning voters and the working class to vote out.  But we're not getting to hear it.  

This appeared on social Media from Blackbird Leys IWCA.  I thought it was quite an interesting read. 

Here's an article by one of our activists that outlines the fundamental anti-working class nature of the EU and the historic complicity of Tory and Labour politicians from both remain and leave camps in the EU's merciless rightward drift:

THE EU REFERENDUM IS A RED HERRING FOR THE WORKING CLASS

A plague on both their houses...

To a working class drained and exhausted by having been made to shoulder the weight and the cost of austerity and immigration (and being called bigoted and racist for its efforts), the ruling class is offering a choice between two very bad options, both of which will make life even harder for the working class. Because whoever wins will claim a mandate to carry on with their current identical agendas of privatisations and austerity (Boris Johnson and Michael Gove as defenders of the NHS? Please). So even a victory for the Remain campaign would not be a victory for the status quo. This is a War of the Roses, the prize being whose friends get the rich pickings of privatisations (the Land Registry anyone?), academisation and anti-trade union legislation, with the working class being asked to pay for its consequences and validate the result.

Of course the EU is a cabal run by the Council (comprised of the heads of state) and unelected commissioners (with the European Parliament playing much the same role as the House of Lords) designed to serve the interests of multinationals at the expense of the workers in each member state. Nobody in their right mind can deny that. But the truth is that successive UK governments, far from being victims of these forces of darkness, have been the main actors in bringing about the most anti-working class policies that could be concocted that were then imposed on the whole Union. Here’s how the little scam they’ve been playing on us works:

1. we are watching the game, and suddenly there’s a scuffle, we follow the scuffle, and we don’t notice that the ball leaves the pitch;
2. a while later a ball is kicked back into the pitch, but it’s not the same ball that left it – and by the time we notice it’s weighted, it’s too late and we are told that now there is no other ball.

When the ball is smuggled out of the pitch, it’s taken to one or more of the four main transnational institutions of political and economic control: the World Trade Organisation, the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund and the EU. None of these have an elected decision-making body (the MEP we elect have consultative powers), none of these have a transparent, democratically controlled system to address grievances. For example, any case of a country being sued by another country for breaching a WTO rule will be heard by a panel of 3-5 “experts” in Geneva. Their report can only be rejected by unanimous consensus and appeals be made only on points of law. The rules do not favour one country or another as such: they favour big business, and big business will use the countries with bigger muscles to enforce their will.

The famous “Banana Wars” of the 1990s are a case in point: the EU had given bananas from former Caribbean colonies protected access to the EU markets to stimulate their economy. Latin American producers, owned by giant US-based corporations, sued the EU because protective tariffs breach free trade principles. The WTO found against the EU, but the US were not satisfied with the changes the EU made, so they imposed retaliatory, non-WTO authorised 100% import duties (and got away with it) on a range of European products, some of which (on textiles) hit Scottish producers very hard (https://www.theguardian.com/world/1999/mar/05/eu.wto3).

The rules transnational institutions make can and are broken, but only by the mightiest and in favour of the interests they serve, yet none of us gave them the power to make those rules, so we can’t vote them out to change the rules. As one anti-globalisation campaigner once said, “Free trade? What is it? Show it to me.”

The UK is a major player in all four institutions. It is true that at the WTO, IMF and WB it negotiates as an EU member, not independently, but, for example, from 2004 to 2008 the Trade Commissioner negotiating on behalf the EU at the WTO etc. was none other than Peter Mandelson.

In all four bodies, all UK governments of the last 25 years at least have aggressively pursued policies and trade deals that hugely strengthened multinationals’ interests and undermined democracy in general and the working class in particular, together with workers’ rights, the environment and the fabric of civil society. Here are some of the most pernicious and far-reaching:

Structural Adjustment Programs, that required developing countries to privatise their public services in order to qualify for the cancellation of debt they had already repaid many times over; these strengthened the hand of multinationals that could later be played at home;
GATS (General Agreement on Trade in Services), that made it illegal for governments to impose “trade barriers” such as environmental and social safeguards, the obligation to train and employ local workers, the enforcement of workers’ rights including the right to organise through unions, democratic accountability, etc. – in practice, everything you would want to be protected by law, so when you hear “trade barriers”, reach for your wallet, as thieves are about – on companies interested in privatising public services. In practice, it stipulated that if a company wants to acquire a public service and run it for profit, it’s illegal for a government to stop them or favour companies that include protections amounting to “trade barriers” in their bid.

All EU directives about privatisation of public services, which are an application of GATS to EU member states, ranging from the “creation of a single market for postal services in the EU” (the operative term being market), to the Bolkenstein Directive. The Bolkenstein Directive is a diabolical and complicated piece of legislation created to ensure that a company providing a service in an EU country is automatically entitled to provide it in all other countries regardless of differences in standards and “trade barriers” between the country of origin and the host country. In its first draft it originally stated that when a company from one country provides a service in another county, the country of origin legislation applied, which would have resulted in a high-speed race to the bottom. Please note that the UK held the EU presidency at the time, and Tony Blair was pushing for the Directive to be adopted, and the Tories didn’t make a sound. However, there was some popular resistance in some countries (France, Germany, Italy, with the British trade unions spectacularly failing to campaign amongst their members and simply sending their bosses to Brussels) and the “country of origin principle” was removed. But it was not replaced with the “host country principle”, in a fudged, fiendish, final directive that therefore obfuscates the issue, doesn’t say which laws apply, and leaves it open to be battled out in courtrooms for lawyers to have a field day.
The UK negotiated an opt-out on the European Working Time Directive (the Directive meant to prevent employers from making workers work more than 48 hours a week). It is a standard clause in most UK contracts that you “agree” to opt out. The wording on www.gov.uk says, “You can choose to work more by opting out of the 48-hour week”, like it’s a freedom it negotiated for you, but doesn’t say that all overtime must be paid. It is of course true that in every country workers’ rights have been hard won by the organised working class but, truth be told, it has been EU regulations that have so far prevented successive UK governments from stripping off the last vestiges of them, and the UK employment law is the worst in Europe.
now TTIP, the next step from GATS being negotiated between the EU and the US, which is meant to allow multinationals to sue a government for “lost revenue” (Huh?) if a government denies it permission or restricts its right to operate on its territory (through the imposition of “trade barriers”, of course), and CETA (which is the same as TTIP, but with Canada). Did you hear Cameron, Johnson or Gove or any of them (apart from, in fairness, the Green Party) denounce TTIP for the evil it is before it suited them for the purpose the referendum campaign?

It is fundamental to realise that all of the above trade deals and consequent policies, that ensured the transference of power from nation states and elected governments to multinationals and banks, were pushed for by all of the UK governments in the last 25 years: they were not imposed on the UK – they were pursued by the UK and imposed on other countries (such as the developing countries).

So that’s what happens to the ball when it leaves the pitch, and that’s why the ball that is kicked back on the pitch a bit later is never the same ball – it is one heavily weighted, and weighted against the working class and in favour of multinationals. And if somebody complained every time it happened, the UK government was able to play the victim and say its hands were tied by WTO/WB/IMF/EU regulations.

It is of course tempting to think that leaving the EU would at least remove one of the fig leaves the ruling class hides behind. Yet one look at the reality of the British economy (no manufacturing worth mentioning, a parasitic banking and financial sector, and a monstrously overblown, bloated housing market) explains why bilateral deals, like the disastrous one Osborne successfully negotiated with China a few months back and which would be the rule outside the EU, mean the sell-out of the UK to line the pockets of Osborne’s patrons and bleed the working class to death. It is true that Norway has been doing well outside the EU, but it was never inside and it hasn’t put its public services, infrastructure, power and working class through the mangle the way the UK has.

And let us not forget that, given that the UK still retains the pound and the power to set its own economic policy independently from the EU and the European Central Bank, the austerity that has been choking the working class was not imposed by the EU but is entirely of Osborne’s choosing. Again: did you hear Boris Johnson or Michael Gove complain against it?

So the truth is that the ruling class, in the UK and in the rest of the EU, doesn’t need the EU, not even its cover, to carry out its class war and this very dirty work. What is happening now is that, after blaming the EU for the muck on its hands for too long, a sector of the ruling class has seized the opportunity to exploit the other sector’s political miscalculation together with the anger of so many, and make another push to further their patrons’ and their own interests. The working class will not only gain nothing from either outcome, but will be subjected to a further squeeze whatever the outcome, when the portion of the ruling class that wins takes all.

DV
« Last Edit: June 21, 2016, 09:53:37 PM by PokerBroker » Logged
nirvana
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 7804



View Profile
« Reply #2984 on: June 21, 2016, 09:50:40 PM »

So many ****s on both sides - biggest debate in our modern history descends into a ludicrous and childish mud slinging contest based on personal and party political insults.

I am so weary and more aware than ever of why I stopped showing any interest in politics for 25 years.
Logged

sola virtus nobilitat
Pages: 1 ... 195 196 197 198 [199] 200 201 202 203 ... 1533 Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.302 seconds with 21 queries.