The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

One more with this, the strongest trend in any demographic was educated in, uneducated out. I still believe in democracy, but.

Theres less educated people, surely people with degrees can count .

Maybe the answer is to only allow the degree educated to vote.

After all, we wouldn't be in this mess then would we?

Some strange takes on democracy seem to be developing.

[DaveShoelace]

Who's in bigger crisis, Labour or Tory?

It's an incredibly stupid question, one of them is completely destroying our country.

Incredibly stupid answer, he asked which party is in trouble, not which party is to blame.

[RickBFA]

We knew all this last week though before the vote.  Nothing has changed.  So why did we bother with the vote?

I will repeat the question.  WHY DID WE BOTHER TO VOTE?  

Was it a case of thinking leave would't happen and we will freeroll it knowing if remain wins like it should then we are safe and the wagons will have had their chance to have their say but if it doesn't then remain will still win because we will cry and say we can't operate without the EU.  Was that the arrogant attitude that actually happened and they are now in the shit trying to dig their way out of it?

LOL, I can't believe you asked this question.

We voted because Cameron put the referendum in the Tory manefesto, to save about 20 MPs losing their seasts to UKIP.

Then when the coalition negotiations started, it would be the first thing ditched by the Tories to the Lib Dems.

Whoops. The Tories accidentally won an outright majority.

Sure i know and get all that but that isn't my point. Why not just say last week 'no point having the vote whatever we promised you in the past in the manifesto because leave can't win because if it does win it will still lose' and save all the debates and chat.  'Sorry for pretending we were ever going to have a vote because it is too dangerous to leave the EU so we are not going to give you a chance to ruin the country'

Surely this would be better than letting people vote then deciding afterwards that if they win they will still lose politically?

You must know that couldn't happen. Cameron made a desperate lurch to the right to win an election. Calling it off without a vote would be curtains. When it came to it, he had to gamble.

It would have been much better to scrap the vote than to run the vote and then say 'fuck you you won but you couldn't really win and you have actually lost'

It is like a bookie not wanting to take a bet from a pro punter but being forced to take it because of conflicting politics within the betting firm but then when it wins saying 'sorry sir we didn't want your bet so we are not going to pay you'

And I'd be pissed off in that spot. As agreed many times, I think you're a good and smart guy. This one is a mess though, and I reckon you're on the wrong side of it.

I am not saying it is perfect or ideal in any way.  Nothing materially has changed since pre vote.  We knew all this before the vote.  If it was such a risk why did we bother with the vote?  Surely it was a better bold decision to scrap the vote before rather than deal with this afterwards?  It wasn't like Remain was a 1.01 shot and weighed in last week.  It was always a live 3/1 (25% likely) poke to win during the week before the vote.

By even considering reversing the result you risk a whole nation never taking voting seriously again in this country.  Just the same as a gambler would never ever gamble with the said firm in my example above if you did that to him and refused to pay.  This is way more important than just leaving the EU.  This is about the respect people are given when they are given the opportunity to vote for the next 100 years.

I agree with Arbboy's last paragraph above.

The trust of the electorate in our voting system is at stake here.

We might have massive problems as a result of Brexit but if you ignore or try to avoid the will of the people you are going down a dangerous path.

[DungBeetle]

Who's in bigger crisis, Labour or Tory?

It's an incredibly stupid question, one of them is completely destroying our country.

It's not stupid at all.  Who is doing more damage to the country is irrelevant to which party is in more internal turmoil.

[DungBeetle]

One more with this, the strongest trend in any demographic was educated in, uneducated out. I still believe in democracy, but.

Theres less educated people, surely people with degrees can count .

Maybe the answer is to only allow the degree educated to vote.

After all, we wouldn't be in this mess then would we?

Some strange takes on democracy seem to be developing.

Perhaps we should weight it by tax paid.  The more tax you kick in the more votes you get.

It is truly bizarre how this referendum has made people question the idea of one person, one vote.

[arbboy]

Who's in bigger crisis, Labour or Tory?

If you are looking at their relative ability to win an election ( this is the core goal of either party) then labour by a mile,  they have lost 50 ish ( sure kmac will confirm the exact figure being a local specialist in the field) rock solid seats in Scotland in the last decade which they won't be getting back in a rush.  They can't win any of the key Middle England marginals given the current far left management and they will lose bundles of their core seats in England to ukip now after the EU vote.  They are fucked.  I really have no idea how they are so short in the betting to win the next election, it looks virtually impossible based on the current voting scoring system.  Is Blair coming back? Things can only get better? D'ream 1997 all over again?

[arbboy]

One more with this, the strongest trend in any demographic was educated in, uneducated out. I still believe in democracy, but.

Theres less educated people, surely people with degrees can count .

Maybe the answer is to only allow the degree educated to vote.

After all, we wouldn't be in this mess then would we?

Some strange takes on democracy seem to be developing.

Perhaps we should weight it by tax paid.  The more tax you kick in the more votes you get.

It is truly bizarre how this referendum has made people question the idea of one person, one vote.

Half the punters chirping here wouldn't even get a vote then if it was done on income tax paid myself included!

[DaveShoelace]

One more with this, the strongest trend in any demographic was educated in, uneducated out. I still believe in democracy, but.

Theres less educated people, surely people with degrees can count .

Maybe the answer is to only allow the degree educated to vote.

After all, we wouldn't be in this mess then would we?

Some strange takes on democracy seem to be developing.

Perhaps we should weight it by tax paid.  The more tax you kick in the more votes you get.

It is truly bizarre how this referendum has made people question the idea of one person, one vote.

Half the punters chirping here wouldn't even get a vote then if it was done on income tax paid myself included!

Nor would half the bankers.

Zing, power to the people etc.

[Jon MW]

One more with this, the strongest trend in any demographic was educated in, uneducated out. I still believe in democracy, but.

Theres less educated people, surely people with degrees can count .

Maybe the answer is to only allow the degree educated to vote.

After all, we wouldn't be in this mess then would we?

Some strange takes on democracy seem to be developing.

Perhaps we should weight it by tax paid.  The more tax you kick in the more votes you get.

It is truly bizarre how this referendum has made people question the idea of one person, one vote.

Referendum hasn't made me question that at all - I've always considered a meritocracy to be a much more sensible idea than a democracy

[arbboy]

I appreciate a lot of remain guys here who are reasonably shrewd are talking through their wallets right now with some of their statements. My question to them is this: if we fully leave the EU now as we have voted for as a nation what price the UK is better off or worse off as a country in 2030?   Not just financially but across the board as a standard of living index. There is no point looking at this in the short term,  we all know short term we are worse off just like you are when you quit work to set up your own business. The first two years are tough.  This is exactly the same.  By 2030 are we better off all round as a nation or worse off. How likely is each one camel? Kusk? Tighty? Any one else is obviously welcome to get involved as well.

[DropTheHammer]

The next 3+ years are going to be very rocky. I strongly believe that there will be a recession and advise people to consider fixing their mortgages for as long as possible as inflation and interest rates will start to rise. My brother recently bought a flat and he is stretched to repay the current mortgage, I have told him to prepare for a worst-case scenario of interest rates rising to 15%. It happened in the 80s and it could happen again.

For anyone worried about job security, now is a good time to take out some 0% no-fee balance transfer credit cards. This is effectively an APR-free two-year loan which you can squirrel away in a cash ISA and withdraw in two years to repay the card before the interest-free period ends. If your mortgage needs to be renewed within this 2 years be careful because they may not look fondly on this large amount sitting on a credit card.

[Jon MW]

The next 3+ years are going to be very rocky. I strongly believe that there will be a recession and advise people to consider fixing their mortgages for as long as possible as inflation and interest rates will start to rise. My brother recently bought a flat and he is stretched to repay the current mortgage, I have told him to prepare for a worst-case scenario of interest rates rising to 15%. It happened in the 80s and it could happen again.

For anyone worried about job security, now is a good time to take out some 0% no-fee balance transfer credit cards. This is effectively an APR-free two-year loan which you can squirrel away in a cash ISA and withdraw in two years to repay the card before the interest-free period ends. If your mortgage needs to be renewed within this 2 years be careful because they may not look fondly on this large amount sitting on a credit card.

Aren't they more likely to cut the interest rate if we go into recession?

Raising the interest rates would be to curb inflation - imported goods might push inflation up a bit, but wouldn't have thought it would be enough to outweigh the need to get people spending (?)

[DungBeetle]

I appreciate a lot of remain guys here who are reasonably shrewd are talking through their wallets right now with some of their statements. My question to them is this: if we fully leave the EU now as we have voted for as a nation what price the UK is better off or worse off as a country in 2030?   Not just financially but across the board as a standard of living index. There is no point looking at this in the short term,  we all know short term we are worse off just like you are when you quit work to set up your own business. The first two years are tough.  This is exactly the same.  By 2030 are we better off all round as a nation or worse off. How likely is each one camel? Kusk?

Interesting question.  As someone who was made redundant earlier this year and who works in financial services this vote is potentially terminal for my current career at my level of seniority if there is a widespread recruitment freeze.  I may need a career change.  Nonetheless I can envisage a scenario where this is a big positive for the UK even if I will need to adapt.  The thing that has really frightened me is having won the vote the Exit camp literally have no plan going forward.  It's like they didn't expect to win and I don't think that bodes well for the future and think we might have many years of foregone growth which we can't get back.  

I'll go 1/2 we are worse off as a nation by 2030 than if we had remained?  The key thing for me is I don't think we have credible people in Government to lead us forward.  They are running round like headless chickens and that is reflected in my price.

[RickBFA]

The next 3+ years are going to be very rocky. I strongly believe that there will be a recession and advise people to consider fixing their mortgages for as long as possible as inflation and interest rates will start to rise. My brother recently bought a flat and he is stretched to repay the current mortgage, I have told him to prepare for a worst-case scenario of interest rates rising to 15%. It happened in the 80s and it could happen again.

For anyone worried about job security, now is a good time to take out some 0% no-fee balance transfer credit cards. This is effectively an APR-free two-year loan which you can squirrel away in a cash ISA and withdraw in two years to repay the card before the interest-free period ends. If your mortgage needs to be renewed within this 2 years be careful because they may not look fondly on this large amount sitting on a credit card.

Aren't they more likely to cut the interest rate if we go into recession?

Raising the interest rates would be to curb inflation - imported goods might push inflation up a bit, but wouldn't have thought it would be enough to outweigh the need to get people spending (?)

I read today that some commentators expect UK base rate to drop to 0% as/if a recession bites.

[JohnCharver]

I appreciate a lot of remain guys here who are reasonably shrewd are talking through their wallets right now with some of their statements. My question to them is this: if we fully leave the EU now as we have voted for as a nation what price the UK is better off or worse off as a country in 2030?   Not just financially but across the board as a standard of living index. There is no point looking at this in the short term,  we all know short term we are worse off just like you are when you quit work to set up your own business. The first two years are tough.  This is exactly the same.  By 2030 are we better off all round as a nation or worse off. How likely is each one camel? Kusk?

Interesting question.  As someone who was made redundant earlier this year and who works in financial services this vote is potentially terminal for my current career at my level of seniority if there is a widespread recruitment freeze.  I may need a career change.  Nonetheless I can envisage a scenario where this is a big positive for the UK even if I will need to adapt.  The thing that has really frightened me is having won the vote the Exit camp literally have no plan going forward.  It's like they didn't expect to win and I don't think that bodes well for the future and think we might have many years of foregone growth which we can't get back.  

I'll go 1/2 we are worse off as a nation by 2030 than if we had remained?  The key thing for me is I don't think we have credible people in Government to lead us forward.  They are running round like headless chickens and that is reflected in my price.

Be a shrink for remain crybabies, youll clean up.

We wont be to tell if we are better off as we have contributed to an EU situation that has changed because we left.