The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Marky147]

there is a permits off option, but it only got 48%

Click to see full-size image.

[RickBFA]

Don't you think the electorate know that Brexit comes with short term economic costs?

That message was aggressively rammed down the throats of the voters almost every day by the remain campaign. Don't know why these "forecasts" are a suprise.

It's clear the majority voted for Brexit knowing that risk.

Whether you like it or not, the public decided that was a cost worth paying for control of our own destiny, borders etc etc

[rfgqqabc]

Don't you think the electorate know that Brexit comes with short term economic costs?

That message was aggressively rammed down the throats of the voters almost every day by the remain campaign. Don't know why these "forecasts" are a suprise.

It's clear the majority voted for Brexit knowing that risk.

Whether you like it or not, the public decided that was a cost worth paying for control of our own destiny, borders etc etc

I really don't think they did. I don't think the average person in the electorate could really have a clue about these things. I didn't feel particularly qualified to vote about such a big issue with more time and more interest than average. I don't think "risk" was a concept. I think people saw the EU get blamed for a bunch of things over the years and I think "Leave" promised a better deal without saying who or what that entails. I think a huge chunk of the average voters believed the 350m £ claim to the Nhs. I think there was a natural district of the Remain campaign, and I think this is widely accepted. Therefore, saying the average voter understood the economic risks has to be wrong. They didn't trust the side that said they would be worse off, especially in the short term.  I think a lot of people wanted "sovereignty" without actually know what the UK did or didn't have the powers to do.

I don't think people believed the Remain campaign and I don't think that equates to people understanding the risk. I think if they actually realised what it would entail and we had a referendum now then they would vote to stay because of this. Did anyone expect this shit show? I would have thought we would at least have our goals or some sort of plan. At the moment it seems like we don't even know what we are legally allowed to do. At the moment we are still being promised deals which are impossible so it's pointless to discuss the potential impact  and when we look back through history in the future there could easily be several different things that change the outcome here such as French/Dutch elections.

[DungBeetle]

there is a permits off option, but it only got 48%

Click to see full-size image.

This bloke got the hard Brexit scenario.  In my game I had soft Brexit which didn't effect the permits so much.

[Doobs]

I'd throw 'treating poor/working class voters with contempt' is the biggest mistake that British and American (and in particular left leaning) politicians and media types make. Look at how the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the 'working man' in 2016. That's the fault of Labour and the Democrats, not 'thick voters'.

Hold on, did you really say that the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the working man?   Sure, they have pretended to do so, but that isn't the same thing.

[doubleup]

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/hard-brexit-cliff-edge-vision-leaving-eu-without-deal-imagined/

This seems a nice scenario.

for pharma employed brexit lovers

Pharmaceutical firms are thrown into chaos. British regulators are unable to take on the full workload of the European Medicines Agency, so cannot authorise the sale of anti-inflammatory pills, eczema lotions and other treatments to UK patients. British pharmaceutical development slumps into a state of regulatory bafflement.

[DaveShoelace]

I'd throw 'treating poor/working class voters with contempt' is the biggest mistake that British and American (and in particular left leaning) politicians and media types make. Look at how the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the 'working man' in 2016. That's the fault of Labour and the Democrats, not 'thick voters'.

Hold on, did you really say that the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the working man?   Sure, they have pretended to do so, but that isn't the same thing.

Yes I did and compared to the Dems/Labour yes they do.

[Doobs]

I'd throw 'treating poor/working class voters with contempt' is the biggest mistake that British and American (and in particular left leaning) politicians and media types make. Look at how the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the 'working man' in 2016. That's the fault of Labour and the Democrats, not 'thick voters'.

Hold on, did you really say that the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the working man?   Sure, they have pretended to do so, but that isn't the same thing.

Yes I did and compared to the Dems/Labour yes they do.

In what way?  Trump is advocating a huge tax cut for the wealthy, getting rid of obama care etc.  There is zero chance the majority of the working class voted for him, because the majority got this.

You also seemed to deliberately misunderstand Keith.  Many of the voters that didn't follow Labour on Brexit did so because the casual racism of Farage and the like appeals to them. What those people need is to be better educated and not to be pandered to in Labour party policies.  This isn't treating labour party voters with contempt, as you claimed, this is treating racists with contempt. Of course this isn't all brexit voters that are racist, but Keith never said it was, you made that jump all by yourself.

As an aside, I don't know when it became less acceptable to accuse others of racism than it is to actually be a racist.  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous. 

[DungBeetle]

I'd throw 'treating poor/working class voters with contempt' is the biggest mistake that British and American (and in particular left leaning) politicians and media types make. Look at how the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the 'working man' in 2016. That's the fault of Labour and the Democrats, not 'thick voters'.

Hold on, did you really say that the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the working man?   Sure, they have pretended to do so, but that isn't the same thing.

Yes I did and compared to the Dems/Labour yes they do.

In what way?  Trump is advocating a huge tax cut for the wealthy, getting rid of obama care etc.  There is zero chance the majority of the working class voted for him, because the majority got this.

You also seemed to deliberately misunderstand Keith.  Many of the voters that didn't follow Labour on Brexit did so because the casual racism of Farage and the like appeals to them. What those people need is to be better educated and not to be pandered to in Labour party policies.  This isn't treating labour party voters with contempt, as you claimed, this is treating racists with contempt. Of course this isn't all brexit voters that are racist, but Keith never said it was, you made that jump all by yourself.

As an aside, I don't know when it became less acceptable to accuse others of racism than it is to actually be a racist.  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous. 

The policy of "re-educating" people who didn't vote for Labour sure is going to be a vote winner

[DaveShoelace]

In what way?  Trump is advocating a huge tax cut for the wealthy, getting rid of obama care etc.  There is zero chance the majority of the working class voted for him, because the majority got this.

Well mostly because that's how the working class states in America voted. Also Trump's pledge to bring back jobs. The fact that Hillary Clinton called his voterbase a basket of deplorables. Plus a lot of working class people hate Obamacare.

You also seemed to deliberately misunderstand Keith.  Many of the voters that didn't follow Labour on Brexit did so because the casual racism of Farage and the like appeals to them. What those people need is to be better educated and not to be pandered to in Labour party policies.  This isn't treating labour party voters with contempt, as you claimed, this is treating racists with contempt. Of course this isn't all brexit voters that are racist, but Keith never said it was, you made that jump all by yourself.

I said Labour had lost the working class and didn't mention racism, Keith replied with 'But if pandering to nationalism and racism is the only way Labour can win an election, I'd rather they didn't win tyvm.' I didn't bring up racism, he did, so I think it was a fair assumption to make. If I have misjudged what he meant I of course apologise, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that I made.

As an aside, I don't know when it became less acceptable to accuse others of racism than it is to actually be a racist.  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous.  

I agree. But accusing people who are not racist of being racist can ruin reputations and careers, and Brexit and Trump have exposed how commonplace it is for the left to accuse working class voters of being racist to shut down debate. It's not just the left of course, the Tories did the same thing when Labour went through the anti semitism thing recently.

[nirvana]

I'd throw 'treating poor/working class voters with contempt' is the biggest mistake that British and American (and in particular left leaning) politicians and media types make. Look at how the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the 'working man' in 2016. That's the fault of Labour and the Democrats, not 'thick voters'.

Hold on, did you really say that the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the working man?   Sure, they have pretended to do so, but that isn't the same thing.

Yes I did and compared to the Dems/Labour yes they do.

In what way?  Trump is advocating a huge tax cut for the wealthy, getting rid of obama care etc.  There is zero chance the majority of the working class voted for him, because the majority got this.

You also seemed to deliberately misunderstand Keith.  Many of the voters that didn't follow Labour on Brexit did so because the casual racism of Farage and the like appeals to them. What those people need is to be better educated and not to be pandered to in Labour party policies.  This isn't treating labour party voters with contempt, as you claimed, this is treating racists with contempt. Of course this isn't all brexit voters that are racist, but Keith never said it was, you made that jump all by yourself.

As an aside, I don't know when it became less acceptable to accuse others of racism than it is to actually be a racist.  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous. 

Think that last point is quite interesting. Being a racist is kind of a personal choice that needn't mean you besmirch anybody, articulate it, act on it or do anything that harms someone of another race or incites someone else to. Howling racist at people who take a different view (unrelated to race) is pretty harmful I think and stifles and reduces discussion in important areas. I think this happens a lot - obv don't mean you and Keith. It was one of the worst aspects of the whole referendum debate and I think the accusations of racism (as a tactic) backfired spectacularly.

It's  a funny pass we've arrived at - I watched the ITV news last night, the coverage of the Jo Cox murder trial tried to convey that there was a massively resurgent extreme right in this country. Pretty sure that the 70s and 80s saw more in the way of right wing activity in the form of National Front marches and confrontations with their opposition. I mean I really see no evidence of it and got fairly depressed by the massively editorialised and opinionised nature of news coverage these days

[DaveShoelace]

I'd throw 'treating poor/working class voters with contempt' is the biggest mistake that British and American (and in particular left leaning) politicians and media types make. Look at how the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the 'working man' in 2016. That's the fault of Labour and the Democrats, not 'thick voters'.

Hold on, did you really say that the Tories and the Republicans are now the parties that represent the working man?   Sure, they have pretended to do so, but that isn't the same thing.

Yes I did and compared to the Dems/Labour yes they do.

In what way?  Trump is advocating a huge tax cut for the wealthy, getting rid of obama care etc.  There is zero chance the majority of the working class voted for him, because the majority got this.

You also seemed to deliberately misunderstand Keith.  Many of the voters that didn't follow Labour on Brexit did so because the casual racism of Farage and the like appeals to them. What those people need is to be better educated and not to be pandered to in Labour party policies.  This isn't treating labour party voters with contempt, as you claimed, this is treating racists with contempt. Of course this isn't all brexit voters that are racist, but Keith never said it was, you made that jump all by yourself.

As an aside, I don't know when it became less acceptable to accuse others of racism than it is to actually be a racist.  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous. 

Think that last point is quite interesting. Being a racist is kind of a personal choice that needn't mean you besmirch anybody, articulate it, act on it or do anything that harms someone of another race or incites someone else to. Howling racist at people who take a different view (unrelated to race) is pretty harmful I think and stifles and reduces discussion in important areas. I think this happens a lot - obv don't mean you and Keith. It was one of the worst aspects of the whole referendum debate and I think the accusations of racism (as a tactic) backfired spectacularly.

It's  a funny pass we've arrived at - I watched the ITV news last night, the coverage of the Jo Cox murder trial tried to convey that there was a massively resurgent extreme right in this country. Pretty sure that the 70s and 80s saw more in the way of right wing activity in the form of National Front marches and confrontations with their opposition. I mean I really see no evidence of it and got fairly depressed by the massively editorialised and opinionised nature of news coverage these days

+1

The exact same thing happening with Trump right now, the media are really clinging on to a small but very vocal contingent of white nationalists who supported him. I think this is a minuscule part of his voterbase and if anything contributes to their growth it will be all the media exposure they are getting. It also is creating a boy who cried wolf situation whereby when Trump does something really bad while in office, calling him out on it wont have the necessary impact.

[Woodsey]

https://inews.co.uk/essentials/news/politics/hard-brexit-cliff-edge-vision-leaving-eu-without-deal-imagined/

This seems a nice scenario.

for pharma employed brexit lovers

Pharmaceutical firms are thrown into chaos. British regulators are unable to take on the full workload of the European Medicines Agency, so cannot authorise the sale of anti-inflammatory pills, eczema lotions and other treatments to UK patients. British pharmaceutical development slumps into a state of regulatory bafflement.

No big sweat, they just need to apply for a uk licence, most of the work would have been done already by their counterparts getting the European licence so they can largely use that with a few adjustments.

[Woodsey]

In what way?  Trump is advocating a huge tax cut for the wealthy, getting rid of obama care etc.  There is zero chance the majority of the working class voted for him, because the majority got this.

Well mostly because that's how the working class states in America voted. Also Trump's pledge to bring back jobs. The fact that Hillary Clinton called his voterbase a basket of deplorables. Plus a lot of working class people hate Obamacare.

You also seemed to deliberately misunderstand Keith.  Many of the voters that didn't follow Labour on Brexit did so because the casual racism of Farage and the like appeals to them. What those people need is to be better educated and not to be pandered to in Labour party policies.  This isn't treating labour party voters with contempt, as you claimed, this is treating racists with contempt. Of course this isn't all brexit voters that are racist, but Keith never said it was, you made that jump all by yourself.

I said Labour had lost the working class and didn't mention racism, Keith replied with 'But if pandering to nationalism and racism is the only way Labour can win an election, I'd rather they didn't win tyvm.' I didn't bring up racism, he did, so I think it was a fair assumption to make. If I have misjudged what he meant I of course apologise, but I think it's a reasonable assumption that I made.

As an aside, I don't know when it became less acceptable to accuse others of racism than it is to actually be a racist.  The whole idea is absolutely ridiculous.  

I agree. But accusing people who are not racist of being racist can ruin reputations and careers, and Brexit and Trump have exposed how commonplace it is for the left to accuse working class voters of being racist to shut down debate. It's not just the left of course, the Tories did the same thing when Labour went through the anti semitism thing recently.

Just leave 'em to the insults imo, we all know how that ends up in the ballot box, they are only hurting themselves and their cause.....

[RickBFA]

Don't you think the electorate know that Brexit comes with short term economic costs?

That message was aggressively rammed down the throats of the voters almost every day by the remain campaign. Don't know why these "forecasts" are a suprise.

It's clear the majority voted for Brexit knowing that risk.

Whether you like it or not, the public decided that was a cost worth paying for control of our own destiny, borders etc etc

I really don't think they did. I don't think the average person in the electorate could really have a clue about these things. I didn't feel particularly qualified to vote about such a big issue with more time and more interest than average. I don't think "risk" was a concept. I think people saw the EU get blamed for a bunch of things over the years and I think "Leave" promised a better deal without saying who or what that entails. I think a huge chunk of the average voters believed the 350m £ claim to the Nhs. I think there was a natural district of the Remain campaign, and I think this is widely accepted. Therefore, saying the average voter understood the economic risks has to be wrong. They didn't trust the side that said they would be worse off, especially in the short term.  I think a lot of people wanted "sovereignty" without actually know what the UK did or didn't have the powers to do.

I don't think people believed the Remain campaign and I don't think that equates to people understanding the risk. I think if they actually realised what it would entail and we had a referendum now then they would vote to stay because of this. Did anyone expect this shit show? I would have thought we would at least have our goals or some sort of plan. At the moment it seems like we don't even know what we are legally allowed to do. At the moment we are still being promised deals which are impossible so it's pointless to discuss the potential impact  and when we look back through history in the future there could easily be several different things that change the outcome here such as French/Dutch elections.

The fact the public didn't trust the remain campaign was because of their own stupidity and treating the public like fools.

Using Obama to give veiled threats was just madness. People thought f@@k you, don't tell us what to do.

People only didn't believe the scare tactics because the remain leadership tried to portray the worst economic outcome in their projects as the most likely.

I think everyone knew it carried some degree of risk, that was really clear but I agree people didn't understand the level of risk. That was partly down to the remain campaign but they were too arrogant to realise it.