The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

something we can probably all agree on

Boris Johnson is a clown who has united the EU against Britain | Jean Quatremer

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/25/boris-johnson-clown-eu-britain-foreign-secretary?CMP=twt_gu

[TightEnd]

Nicola Sturgeon warned that Spain will block special Brexit deal for Scotland http://bit.ly/2gmuVTR

[TightEnd]

John Major: case for second Brexit referendum is credible

interesting phrase, the "tyranny of the majority"

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/25/brexit-sir-john-major-says-perfectly-credible-case-for-second-referendum?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

[TightEnd]

Brexit bill will be pushed through Commons in just five days if government loses Supreme Court battle

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3972914/Brexit-Bill-pushed-Parliament-just-five-days-Theresa-loses-Supreme-Court-battle.html

[DaveShoelace]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

[Skippy]

The government pre- and post- Brexit referendum is not really the same government is it? It's a whole new administration.

We are heading for a one-party state a bit like Japan used to be- it's always the same party in power, but different factions within the party keep taking over.

[kukushkin88]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

Red Ken has become a disaster area, which is sad but it's fine to say Castro wasn't a bad man (read Eduardo Galeano).

Never mention Hitler is so simple and needs to be a hard and fast rule in the Labour Party but it seems to be completely beyond some of them.

[TightEnd]

not a bad man?

probably not the case if you were gay or christian.

summarily executed thousands after revolution

decades of human rights abuses

demanded the USSR nuked the US in the 60s

etc etc

lovely bloke

[DaveShoelace]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

Red Ken has become a disaster area, which is sad but it's fine to say Castro wasn't a bad man (read Eduardo Galeano).

Never mention Hitler is so simple and needs to be a hard and fast rule in the Labour Party but it seems to be completely beyond some of them.

Castro was undeniably evil, he was a very very very bad man. As was Che Guevera. Just because he improved some social services does not excuse the murdering of dissidents, the imprisonment of dissdents, the gay re-education centres, the 10-100,000 people he is estimated to have killed, the fact he almost caused a nuclear war..... I could go on.

The best you can say about Castro is that he probably wasn't as bad as Mao, Stalin or Pot.

[kukushkin88]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

Red Ken has become a disaster area, which is sad but it's fine to say Castro wasn't a bad man (read Eduardo Galeano).

Never mention Hitler is so simple and needs to be a hard and fast rule in the Labour Party but it seems to be completely beyond some of them.

Castro was undeniably evil, he was a very very very bad man. As was Che Guevera. Just because he improved some social services does not excuse the murdering of dissidents, the imprisonment of dissdents, the gay re-education centres, the 10-100,000 people he is estimated to have killed, the fact he almost caused a nuclear war..... I could go on.

The best you can say about Castro is that he probably wasn't as bad as Mao, Stalin or Pot.

His cause was part of the larger fight against the oppression and unnecessary suffering of 100's of millions of people. Some of his methods were reprehensible and lots of what they did was misguided but the USA's treatment of the whole of South America is worse, any reasonable assessment of history must find that. As I say read the 'Open Veins of Latin America' and tell me which parts don't reflect reality.

[DaveShoelace]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

Red Ken has become a disaster area, which is sad but it's fine to say Castro wasn't a bad man (read Eduardo Galeano).

Never mention Hitler is so simple and needs to be a hard and fast rule in the Labour Party but it seems to be completely beyond some of them.

Castro was undeniably evil, he was a very very very bad man. As was Che Guevera. Just because he improved some social services does not excuse the murdering of dissidents, the imprisonment of dissdents, the gay re-education centres, the 10-100,000 people he is estimated to have killed, the fact he almost caused a nuclear war..... I could go on.

The best you can say about Castro is that he probably wasn't as bad as Mao, Stalin or Pot.

His cause was part of the larger fight against the oppression and unnecessary suffering of 100's of millions of people. Some of his methods were reprehensible and lots of what they did was misguided but the USA's treatment of the whole of South America is worse, any reasonable assessment of history must find that. As I say read the 'Open Veins of Latin America' and tell me which parts don't reflect reality.

Sorry I don't buy the 'but someone else did something bad so it's ok that this person did something evil' argument. You don't beat oppression with more oppression. When you get to the stage where you kill people who try to leave any good intentions you had are overruled.

[kukushkin88]

That's overly simplistic, in an ideal world you'd be right. In this world, everything was stacked against them and they decided their cause was worth killing for, not a decision intelligent human beings take lightly.

Not often right and wrong is clear cut in war and this is no exception but it's hard to argue that Fidel/Che are the bad guys.

[PokerBroker]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

He wasn't a bad man, he was one of the greatest leaders ever. 

A man who put people before greed.

[DaveShoelace]

That's overly simplistic, in an ideal world you'd be right. In this world, everything was stacked against them and they decided their cause was worth killing for, not a decision intelligent human beings take lightly.

Not often right and wrong is clear cut in war and this is no exception but it's hard to argue that Fidel/Che are the bad guys.

I cannot fundamentally even begin to defend the idea that 'they decided their cause was worth killing for'. I can defend even quite creative interpretations of killing in self defence, of which I am sure Castro was doing in part, but killing ones own people for dissent is never justified.

I'll be charitable and say it's not black and white and he had good intentions at times, but come on, 'it's hard to argue that Fidel/Che are the bad guys' - almost starting nuclear war, treatment of gays? By all means stick with your position, but you have to admit there is an argument to be made that they were bad?

[DaveShoelace]

Fidel Castro is dead.

Within hours Ken Livingstone was on the radio saying he wasn't a bad man and........getting a Hitler reference in.

He wasn't a bad man, he was one of the greatest leaders ever. 

A man who put people before greed.

Except about 100,000 people who disagreed with him, gay people.

There are ways to be bad that don't relate to wealth distribution.