The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[DMorgan]

Any particular reason why it went through as a statutory instrument and not as a finance bill?

[Marky147]

Not to mention the House of Lord's having to intervene in a financial matter for the first time in over 100 years of British Government because of a callous and ill thought out policy that would have brought thousands more people below the poverty line.

[nitpicking]  Don't think it was technically a finance bill, it was a SI.  If Osborne had included his changes in an actual (Budget) Finance Bill, they couldn't have been stopped by the Lords afaik. [/nitpicking]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cc09f85c-7c03-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html#axzz3rsIoG7kT

Cameron and Osborne both said the Lord's didn't have the constitutional authority to overrule what was a financial bill prior to it being defeated. That turned out well. If it wasn't tragic for the poor, unwell and disabled people of this country it would be amusing how much the power of winning a small majority (5th smallest since 1831) went to Osborne's head. 

Kush, you're gonna send me to dignitas if you keep telling me how tragic things are going to be for me

As long as I keep running like Biff with the Sports Almanac from BTTF on the American Football, it'll be just fine :-) I'll be putting some strong bets up for this weekend.

Fingers crossed, and then I'll get that bottle of scotch ordered on Monday

[DungBeetle]

Not to mention the House of Lord's having to intervene in a financial matter for the first time in over 100 years of British Government because of a callous and ill thought out policy that would have brought thousands more people below the poverty line.

[nitpicking]  Don't think it was technically a finance bill, it was a SI.  If Osborne had included his changes in an actual (Budget) Finance Bill, they couldn't have been stopped by the Lords afaik. [/nitpicking]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/cc09f85c-7c03-11e5-a1fe-567b37f80b64.html#axzz3rsIoG7kT

Cameron and Osborne both said the Lord's didn't have the constitutional authority to overrule what was a financial bill prior to it being defeated. That turned out well. If it wasn't tragic for the poor, unwell and disabled people of this country it would be amusing how much the power of winning a small majority (5th smallest since 1831) went to Osborne's head. 

What point are you making here?   The bill was passed in the commons so he has all the power he needed in that regard.  If the Lords block it it makes no difference if he has a majority in the commons of 2 or 200.

[DungBeetle]

Any particular reason why it went through as a statutory instrument and not as a finance bill?

I think it cuts out a few levels of debates/amendments so naughty of Osbourne on such a heavy hitting change.  Got what he deserved for being sneaky.

[TightEnd]

Labour backbenchers to make public case next week for extending UK military action to Syria, say 20+ certain backers

http://news.sky.com/story/1590219/labour-mps-come-out-in-support-of-syria-strikes

i gather a free vote is coming from the labour side

[DaveShoelace]

i gather a free vote is coming from the labour side

Learning time, what's a 'free vote' in this context?

Dumb it down please, hand puppets welcome.

[AlunB]

Back to an older topic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34857015

Genuinely terrifying

[AlunB]

i gather a free vote is coming from the labour side

Learning time, what's a 'free vote' in this context?

Dumb it down please, hand puppets welcome.

One where the is no whip in place, where members of a party are not told how to vote by the leadership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whip_(politics)

[TightEnd]

i gather a free vote is coming from the labour side

Learning time, what's a 'free vote' in this context?

Dumb it down please, hand puppets welcome.

the major parties usually "whip", ie tell their MPs how to vote in line with party policy

sometimes backbench MPs rebel and defy the whip. Corbyn himself and the hard left did this against Blair on numerous occasions. the hard right do it on european issues against the tory government, typically

Corbyn has previously said that a Syria vote would be whipped from the labour side

a free vote indicates no whip, vote how you wish

[DaveShoelace]

Very interesting thanks

How is a when to have a free vote decided? I presume the default is to have the 'whippy' vote, and special circumstances force a free vote?

[George2Loose]

A free vote is usually granted on issues of morality

[TightEnd]

Very interesting thanks

How is a when to have a free vote decided? I presume the default is to have the 'whippy' vote, and special circumstances force a free vote?

yes

up to the leader

sometimes when he thinks the risk of a big rebellion is too high, sometimes on issues of national importance where there are different views

usually whipped though

if the article linked above is correct and somewhere up to 50 labour mps in a free vote would side with the government (who themselves will have some mps who would abstain or vote against) then it is felt likely that the syria vote would pass

[AlunB]

Can someone explain to me how us bombing Syria makes us more safe?

Let's for the sake of this argument assume that bombing Syria is the correct thing to do. I'm not saying it is, but just bear with me.

The US, Russia and France are already bombing the place. I can't imagine the addition of a few UK planes will really make much of a difference one way or another, but places us directly in the firing line for revenge attacks.

Is it just wanting to be seen to be "playing our part" and wanting to be seen as a major player on the global scale and to be allowed to be involved in the reconstruction process or am I being too cynical?

[Jon MW]

Very interesting thanks

How is a when to have a free vote decided? I presume the default is to have the 'whippy' vote, and special circumstances force a free vote?

yes

up to the leader

sometimes when he thinks the risk of a big rebellion is too high, sometimes on issues of national importance where there are different views

usually whipped though

if the article linked above is correct and somewhere up to 50 labour mps in a free vote would side with the government (who themselves will have some mps who would abstain or vote against) then it is felt likely that the syria vote would pass

Also you have different levels of whips.

If an issue isn't very important - then you get a 1 line whip; in general that means something like - you don't have to show up, just don't vote against.

A 2 line whip means you have to vote for this and you can't vote against.

A 3 line whip means - you have to come in to vote for this no matter what, no excuses.

[AlunB]

Very interesting thanks

How is a when to have a free vote decided? I presume the default is to have the 'whippy' vote, and special circumstances force a free vote?

yes

up to the leader

sometimes when he thinks the risk of a big rebellion is too high, sometimes on issues of national importance where there are different views

usually whipped though

if the article linked above is correct and somewhere up to 50 labour mps in a free vote would side with the government (who themselves will have some mps who would abstain or vote against) then it is felt likely that the syria vote would pass

Also you have different levels of whips.

If an issue isn't very important - then you get a 1 line whip; in general that means something like - you don't have to show up, just don't vote against.

A 2 line whip means you have to vote for this and you can't vote against.

A 3 line whip means - you have to come in to vote for this no matter what, no excuses.

I'm sure I've been told this terminology was due to them underlining items in the printed order of business.