The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[AlunB]

I'd rather have a leader who listens to people, treats them with respect and doesn't condone his supporters beating up people who disagree with him to be honest

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/22/politics/donald-trump-black-lives-matter-protester-confrontation/

[AlunB]

To answer your question properly Barry, I think both extremes are harmful and unhelpful and the best option, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle.

If you shout down all dissenting voices and use violence or the threat of violence to counter those who try and protest then you are really just a dictator. Do I want to be ruled by a strong powerful dictator? No. No I don't.

Equally if you just roll over and let the loudest protesting voices speak out then you don't really get anywhere as it's just a constant back and forth. You need to have the ability to say no and sometimes shut the hell up.

But on balance I feel the value of a democratically elected leader being strong is massively overstated. If we draw on our own experience what sort of leadership do we all value in our jobs, sports teams, families etc? Is it strong in the powerful, single minded, make everyone bow to your will sense? Or is it strong in the inspiring, inclusive, wise and determined sense?

[DaveShoelace]

To answer your question properly Barry, I think both extremes are harmful and unhelpful and the best option, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle.

If you shout down all dissenting voices and use violence or the threat of violence to counter those who try and protest then you are really just a dictator. Do I want to be ruled by a strong powerful dictator? No. No I don't.

Equally if you just roll over and let the loudest protesting voices speak out then you don't really get anywhere as it's just a constant back and forth. You need to have the ability to say no and sometimes shut the hell up.

But on balance I feel the value of a democratically elected leader being strong is massively overstated. If we draw on our own experience what sort of leadership do we all value in our jobs, sports teams, families etc? Is it strong in the powerful, single minded, make everyone bow to your will sense? Or is it strong in the inspiring, inclusive, wise and determined sense?

Obviously you are bang on correct. For whatever reason though, I just lean slightly towards a leader being more decisive and tough. Maybe it is in light of the recent events in Paris that is biasing that a little.

[AlunB]

To answer your question properly Barry, I think both extremes are harmful and unhelpful and the best option, as usual, lies somewhere in the middle.

If you shout down all dissenting voices and use violence or the threat of violence to counter those who try and protest then you are really just a dictator. Do I want to be ruled by a strong powerful dictator? No. No I don't.

Equally if you just roll over and let the loudest protesting voices speak out then you don't really get anywhere as it's just a constant back and forth. You need to have the ability to say no and sometimes shut the hell up.

But on balance I feel the value of a democratically elected leader being strong is massively overstated. If we draw on our own experience what sort of leadership do we all value in our jobs, sports teams, families etc? Is it strong in the powerful, single minded, make everyone bow to your will sense? Or is it strong in the inspiring, inclusive, wise and determined sense?

Obviously you are bang on correct. For whatever reason though, I just lean slightly towards a leader being more decisive and tough. Maybe it is in light of the recent events in Paris that is biasing that a little.

I don't think you're alone in that, and most of the ones we venerate tend to be of the strong-willed types. I tend to think those that can listen to other people's views, adapt and sometimes do a complete 180 when they realise they are wrong make the best leaders. Leadership by shouting is generally really ineffective. But I do agree they need to be able to stand up for themselves and need the courage of their own convictions.

[MintTrav]

It's easy for Trump to take a hard line, as he isn't getting many black votes anyway, unless they are conservatives who are not BLM supporters, but Democrats need to be careful not to alienate their voters. Sanders, O'Malley and Clinton have all conceded airtime to BLM. It's a strange situation, where the movement is mainly targeting its allies, but it has been effective.

[DaveShoelace]

It's easy for Trump to take a hard line, as he isn't getting many black votes anyway, unless they are conservatives who are not BLM supporters, but Democrats need to be careful not to alienate their voters. Sanders, O'Malley and Clinton have all conceded airtime to BLM. It's a strange situation, where the movement is mainly targeting its allies, but it has been effective.

This is unfortunately a big problem with the left in general, in America and to a lesser extent everywhere else. Rather than go after their 'enemies' they actually turn on each other for only 95% agreeing with them.

[DaveShoelace]

Question of the day

In light of the recent attacks in Paris and the aftermath, is this the most scared you have ever been for your safety in a world war context? I don't mean if you have actually been in war or another dangerous situation, specifically whether you are scared that the world as you know it could be on the brink of destruction?

Can you remember how you felt after 9/11 or 7/7? Or the Falklands? (Or the Boer War for Tikay)

[MintTrav]

Question of the day

In light of the recent attacks in Paris and the aftermath, is this the most scared you have ever been for your safety in a world war context? I don't mean if you have actually been in war or another dangerous situation, specifically whether you are scared that the world as you know it could be on the brink of destruction?

Can you remember how you felt after 9/11 or 7/7? Or the Falklands? (Or the Boer War for Tikay)

No.

More concerned about the Autumn Statement. The chickens are about to start coming home to roost.

[TightEnd]

Osborne: "I've not phased them in.. I'll avoid tax credit changes altogether - no further changes"

[Doobs]

Question of the day

In light of the recent attacks in Paris and the aftermath, is this the most scared you have ever been for your safety in a world war context? I don't mean if you have actually been in war or another dangerous situation, specifically whether you are scared that the world as you know it could be on the brink of destruction?

Can you remember how you felt after 9/11 or 7/7? Or the Falklands? (Or the Boer War for Tikay)

Not at all.  The Cold War was much scarier, I grew up believing there was a real chance of nuclear war. 

[maccol]

I was born in October 1962, right in the middle of the Cuban missile crisis.According to my parents that was by far the most frightening period for the world with a real possibility of a USA v USSR conflagration , up to and including nuclear warfare. I don't think we have come close to that (globally) since.

[TightEnd]

Question of the day

In light of the recent attacks in Paris and the aftermath, is this the most scared you have ever been for your safety in a world war context? I don't mean if you have actually been in war or another dangerous situation, specifically whether you are scared that the world as you know it could be on the brink of destruction?

Can you remember how you felt after 9/11 or 7/7? Or the Falklands? (Or the Boer War for Tikay)

cold war for me, but i was a child and things seem bigger then. robably was the biggest threat we've had though, for a war encompassing all of us

9/11 and 7/7 much more threatening than the Falklands, which was always "compartmentalised" and never likely to escalate

but none of them anything like USSR/USA in terms of fear factor

[TightEnd]

Big change - Stamp duty 3 percent higher on second homes and buy to let -

very centrist, going for labour centre left territory

apprenticeship levy + change to stamp duty gives you 4 billion, that nearly covers the tax credits U-turn

 

[TightEnd]

NO cuts to police budget at all - huge win for Home Sec, cuts became politically almost impossible after Paris

[TightEnd]

picture the scene...

"And then I thought I'd quote from Mao."

"really?"

"yes, I'll get the little red book out in the house and quote from it"

"fantastic, absolutely no way that will go down badly"