The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[arbboy]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Go back to old fashioned lifestyles.  Too much healthy eating, lack of smoking/lack of drinking, too much exercise.  People living far too long.  If everyone lived how we used to live people would die much earlier and be much less of a drain on the system.

[MintTrav]

Flying back from Dublin tomorrow night and back again Friday morning just to vote 🇬🇧

Might have to join the Non-EU queue at Dublin Airport.

[nirvana]

I was speaking to one guy today, a gas service engineer, and we touched on the vote. He's in his fifties, working class, voting to leave. I asked him why "I want it back to like when I was a kid. Immigration has ruined my town" I asked him who he generally votes for "always been Labour." To be fair he was equally unimpressed I was voting remain!

That's the thing, it's never going to be back like when we kids.

Manufacturing industry in this country is in tatters. Agriculture, fisheries, steel-making and mining industries are either dead or dying.

We are never going back to post war full employment.

So we have to change, adapt and find a new way in the world.

Actually, this has to be acknowledged as one of the successes in the UK - we're about as near full employment as a typical western economy ever gets

[Woodsey]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Go back to old fashioned lifestyles.  Too much healthy eating, lack of smoking/lack of drinking, too much exercise.  People living far too long.  If everyone lived how we used to live people would die much earlier and be much less of a drain on the system.

Good answer too! 🍻 🍰🍕🌭🍩

[nirvana]

The population of the British Isles is aging at an alarming rate.

We will need mass immigration to take all the jobs native British people turn their noses up at doing.

The British Isles??? Careful.

Haha, funny how many people get this all mixed up

[The Camel]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Selective immigration of skilled workers who earn higher salaries and pay more tax.

When my Dad was in a care home for the last few months of his life not one of the nurses, cooks or cleaning staff was a native British person.

How do you propose to staff care homes and hospitals which within 30 years we will need far more than we've got now.

[nirvana]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Selective immigration of skilled workers who earn higher salaries and pay more tax.

When my Dad was in a care home for the last few months of his life not one of the nurses, cooks or cleaning staff was a native British person.

How do you propose to staff care homes and hospitals which within 30 years we will need far more than we've got now.

Don't immigrants have more kids ?

[Woodsey]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Selective immigration of skilled workers who earn higher salaries and pay more tax.

When my Dad was in a care home for the last few months of his life not one of the nurses, cooks or cleaning staff was a native British person.

How do you propose to staff care homes and hospitals which within 30 years we will need far more than we've got now.

Employ some of the 1.5 mill (or whatever the actual number is) unemployed in the uk first, then fill any shortfall with other immigrants as we require.

[ripple11]

Apparently big queues at some currency exchange places today.

Why not just back leave at 3/1, it's a lot easier and more profitable  

[Woodsey]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Selective immigration of skilled workers who earn higher salaries and pay more tax.

When my Dad was in a care home for the last few months of his life not one of the nurses, cooks or cleaning staff was a native British person.

How do you propose to staff care homes and hospitals which within 30 years we will need far more than we've got now.

Don't immigrants have more kids ?

Yes

[nirvana]

I think the rate of immigration could be an issue at times, on the other hand I also think it's relatively self regulating in that I don't think people come here unless there are jobs. I'm pretty confident that people don't come here to sit around - it's certainly not my experience.

I hate to think how ugly this referendum debate could have been, or might be in the future, in a period of rising unemployment.

[maccol]

Oneof the most astue political activists I kow posted this on facebook earlier today and again agree with much of what he says. He refers to a speech given by a former antifa/anti-racism campagner given in I think September/October last year.  I will try and link that up in the next post. 

I've not been able to do anything during this referendum but this Connolly Conference speech by Gary O'Shea sums up where we are perfectly. Of course this referendum was only promised as a sop to loonies in the Tory party. And it was never meant to take place. Nobody expected the Tories to get a majority last year and any coalition deal would have dumped the referendum pledge. But now the cat is out the bag. I've done my best to ignore both official campaigns in ‪#‎EURef‬ and have no doubt, irrespective of the outcome the working class will get shafted. I've always been opposed to the EU and nothing during this campaign has changed my mind. The Remain Project Fear is every bit as pathetic as the No campaigns Project Fear in the Scottish referendum.

I find the idea that we need to be in the EU to defend workers rights etc completely bogus. Did the EU defend workers rights in Greece? I always thought it was the role of trade unions to defend workers rights not right wing bureaucrats in Brussels. I also find the sneering attitude towards working class people in this referendum campaign disgusting. It's not racist for working class people to have concerns about mass immigration, it's perfectly rational. Big business and the middle class take all the gains of mass immigration while working class communities take all the pain. Privileged people looking down their noses at poor people while calling them racist or stupid because they don't vote how they want them to is not a good look.

If I was a gambling man I'd bet on a narrow Remain vote and while the right (and the ruling class) are divided at present in my opinion the real losers will be Labour. The gulf between Labour and the working class is huge. They've abandoned the working class and now the working class have acted accordingly. The electoral beneficiaries will be the right (and potentially the far right) because the left seem to have no more faith in the working class as an agent of change than Labour do. What we need is a progressive, anti-fascist working class organisation. And we need it now because whatever the referendum result the neoliberal right and the liberal left are driving us at high speed towards a cliff....

This is a really good post.

Why do you Labour has lost the working class?

Thatcher has changed them into believing they have a chance of prosperity?

Or they feel uttterly let down and betrayed by Blair, Brown, Mandelson and Campbell?

Pains me beyond belief to see natural Labour supporters cheering for UKIP and the other racist parties.

I was brought up poor, but I don't attach a working class or middle class label to me.  I am a bit of a mix and I suspect many of my friends struggle to define themselves.  I only think that is a good thing and don't want somebody helping me because of whatever class they want to label me as.  I just want them to help those who are genuinely disadvantaged in life.  All this Tony Blair did nothing for the poor doesn't ring true either.  Schools and hospitals were noticeably improved.  The minimum wage improved the lot of the working poor.  I don't think the gap between rich and poor went up nearly as much as it did under thatcher or it has since labour left power.  Sure they could have done some things better, but all this Labour doesn't support the poor or the working class seems contrary to the evidence.  I also see little point in belonging to a hard left party that can't get in power or doesn't realise that we do need our wealth generators to do ok too.  And there is nothing other than pointless idealistic gibberish in that poker broker post. 

I don't feel threatened by immigration and embrace it.  Who is going to pay taxes and look after my generation when we are old and demented.  Sure it isn't going to be some left wing tosspot in his ivory tower talking of class war.

Others see it differently, but my view of brexit has absolutely nothing to do with some supposed class I belong to.

Perhaps you don'tunderstand class Doobs. 

I suspect that you are the one living in your ivory tower. 

The point about the NHS/Schools noticably improving I don't agree with, we have been saddled by debt due to the PFI contracts embraced by Blair.  Many of the buildings are of poor construction and there have been a number of schools across Scotland closed having caused death and injury to pupils due to shoddy design and workmanship. 

I live in an area that is surrounded by poverty, I see people struggling round about me on a daily basis.  I also see those seem people in a race to the bottom in low paid service jobs, housing is a disaster, schools over populated, doctors over subscribed.  I don't blame the immigrants for this I blame successive UK governments and their lackey's in local government. 

Additionally, I don't see any issue with our wealth creators generating wealth as long as they are paying their way and paying the staff a decent wage. 

The NMW is just lol.  Anyone who has ever had to work for that will know, I suspect you don't fall into that bracket and you're just another condescending middle-class yuppy who got hmself a new arse and forgot his old one. 

an utterly charming response.

Typical KMac  

[The Camel]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Selective immigration of skilled workers who earn higher salaries and pay more tax.

When my Dad was in a care home for the last few months of his life not one of the nurses, cooks or cleaning staff was a native British person.

How do you propose to staff care homes and hospitals which within 30 years we will need far more than we've got now.

Employ some of the 1.5 mill (or whatever the actual number is) unemployed in the uk first, then fill any shortfall with other immigrants as we require.

British people (on the whole) don't want shitty jobs.

[PokerBroker]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Selective immigration of skilled workers who earn higher salaries and pay more tax.

When my Dad was in a care home for the last few months of his life not one of the nurses, cooks or cleaning staff was a native British person.

How do you propose to staff care homes and hospitals which within 30 years we will need far more than we've got now.

Probably because most care homes pay their staff less than Sports Direct and they have to do a worse job.  

The first thing to do would be start paying better wages, there should be a National Living Wage not this nonsense Gidiot tried to pass off as such.  

I'd look at remodelling the entire benefit system.  

I was at a conference yesterday and we were discussing protection of income/life insurance etc one of the presentation case studies showed a couple with 2 kids earning 12k and 13k respectively but if they decided not to work they would be better off claiming state benefits.  Nobody working full time should be subject to such a low wage.  

[maccol]

Doobs and Camel talk about increasing immigration to pay for us when we are old which is correct, but aren't we just kicking the can down the road?  Presumably we bring in a load of working age bods to generate tax and then they'll get old and we'll have to increase the number of new workers again.  At some point we'll run out of capacity unless we are planning to kick out the new tax generators once they have done their bit and paid for our care homes!

So what's the answer?

Go back to old fashioned lifestyles.  Too much healthy eating, lack of smoking/lack of drinking, too much exercise.  People living far too long.  If everyone lived how we used to live people would die much earlier and be much less of a drain on the system.

I get the impression that amongst the 55+ age group there are a high proportion wanting to vote for leaving the 21st century never mind the EU.