The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Jon MW]

Im not seeing much on here about the Corbyn apparent U turn on tuition fees.

What did he actually say?

During the election the shadow educatiin secretary, Angela Raymer said labour wanted to cancel all student debt.  She qualified this by saying they would do this when they could afford it.  I heard an interview with her on 5 live a few days before the election.  From what I remember, she was talking as if 100 billion was small change.  You can also find her talking about it elsewhere from the time if you google it.

Jeremy Corbyn also talked about this "ambition" too.

From what I remember, some other senior labour figure (s) were distancing themselves from it pretty much imediately in other interviews.

I don't think it was in the manifesto, just one of a series of things that people on both sides said in the election.

So it may not be a u turn, but the story isn't entirely false either.  Yeah it wasn't in the manifesto, but she was the shadow minister.

This was all as a response to his original statement when they realised it wasn't possible, but that they didn't want to make too much noise because it was a vote winner.

It started with an NME interview where he said that they would abolish fees and that it wasn't fair that those who graduated with the higher fees had so much debt and that they would look into getting rid of it.

So it's true he never said they would get rid of it - but he did say the debt wasn't fair and they'd look into how to fix that. I don't think it was unreasonable for people to imply that would mean he was committing to abolishing existing debt.

[TightEnd]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/conservatives-weaponise-student-debt/

The Conservatives are back on the front foot. After Jeremy Corbyn appeared to row back on an election promise over the weekend that his party would abolish pre-existing student debt, Labour have been under attack in the press. Now brains at CCHQ have released an attack ad on the issue and it will not make for pleasant viewing at Labour towers:

Promise broken: Corbyn u-turns on abolishing student debt pledge to NME magazine during the election campaign. Yet another Corbyn shambles. pic.twitter.com/xf0dqPtdhY"


(i am not sure it was a promise,and i am not sure its a huge issue, but there is the article anyway)

[EvilPie]

What's the big deal with student debt anyway? They don't have to pay any of it back unless they earn plenty so it's just a future tax on those who actually benefit from it. Seems like the fairest thing I've ever seen.

If you're a bit stupid and don't manage to get a job following your degree (or failing your degree) you join the poor people and don't pay anything. The 'debt' doesn't show up on any credit reports and doesn't affect your ability to borrow in the future in any way whatsoever.

If you get a job that pays enough that you can afford to pay for your education then you pay for it.

Has there ever been a fairer way of distributing wealth between income bands?

I don't even know why they call it a debt. It's not really a debt if you don't have to pay it back.

[DaveShoelace]

What's the big deal with student debt anyway? They don't have to pay any of it back unless they earn plenty so it's just a future tax on those who actually benefit from it. Seems like the fairest thing I've ever seen.

If you're a bit stupid and don't manage to get a job following your degree (or failing your degree) you join the poor people and don't pay anything. The 'debt' doesn't show up on any credit reports and doesn't affect your ability to borrow in the future in any way whatsoever.

If you get a job that pays enough that you can afford to pay for your education then you pay for it.

Has there ever been a fairer way of distributing wealth between income bands?

I don't even know why they call it a debt. It's not really a debt if you don't have to pay it back.

Agree 100%, in fact Sir Martin of Lewis echoed your sentiments

Click to see full-size image.

The amount of debt is huge and too much IMO, but if anyone is scaring working class students off from going to Uni it is Labour, who have made it sound like you need 50k in your bank to ever consider going.

[Jon MW]

What's the big deal with student debt anyway? They don't have to pay any of it back unless they earn plenty so it's just a future tax on those who actually benefit from it. Seems like the fairest thing I've ever seen.

If you're a bit stupid and don't manage to get a job following your degree (or failing your degree) you join the poor people and don't pay anything. The 'debt' doesn't show up on any credit reports and doesn't affect your ability to borrow in the future in any way whatsoever.

If you get a job that pays enough that you can afford to pay for your education then you pay for it.

Has there ever been a fairer way of distributing wealth between income bands?

I don't even know why they call it a debt. It's not really a debt if you don't have to pay it back.

Agree 100%, in fact Sir Martin of Lewis echoed your sentiments

Click to see full-size image.

The amount of debt is huge and too much IMO, but if anyone is scaring working class students off from going to Uni it is Labour, who have made it sound like you need 50k in your bank to ever consider going.

Absolutely this - news coverage doesn't entirely help either. I saw the BBC had a video article with a description something like - how does the student debt effect your credit file and chances of getting a mortgage (plus a couple of other things). The answer is - it pretty much doesn't effect anything like that at all, but if you just looked at the description of the video rather than the video itself I'd guess you'd assume otherwise.

[redsimon]

It can affect your chances of a  mortgage in that the 9% tax/ repayment reduces your net income when lenders look at affordability.

This debate is ironic , £100 billion to write off student loans yet at least 45% of loans will never be repaid according to most forecasts. Oddly, I cannot see any Government stats post 2013 about defaults or non repayments. Would have thought it be regularly reviewed?

[RickBFA]

What's the big deal with student debt anyway? They don't have to pay any of it back unless they earn plenty so it's just a future tax on those who actually benefit from it. Seems like the fairest thing I've ever seen.

If you're a bit stupid and don't manage to get a job following your degree (or failing your degree) you join the poor people and don't pay anything. The 'debt' doesn't show up on any credit reports and doesn't affect your ability to borrow in the future in any way whatsoever.

If you get a job that pays enough that you can afford to pay for your education then you pay for it.

Has there ever been a fairer way of distributing wealth between income bands?

I don't even know why they call it a debt. It's not really a debt if you don't have to pay it back.

Agree 100%, in fact Sir Martin of Lewis echoed your sentiments

Click to see full-size image.

The amount of debt is huge and too much IMO, but if anyone is scaring working class students off from going to Uni it is Labour, who have made it sound like you need 50k in your bank to ever consider going.

Absolutely this - news coverage doesn't entirely help either. I saw the BBC had a video article with a description something like - how does the student debt effect your credit file and chances of getting a mortgage (plus a couple of other things). The answer is - it pretty much doesn't effect anything like that at all, but if you just looked at the description of the video rather than the video itself I'd guess you'd assume otherwise.

Heard Martin Lewis talking about this, seems pretty brassed off with all the political parties on this.

He prefers to call it a 9% tax.

When we had 10% of the population going to university then I can see how it was free but when its 50% of young people in higher education its an expensive promise.

[DaveShoelace]

And if 45% of loans are never paid off, this is surely good evidence to suggest that too many people do degrees and they are not having the impact they should be having? I bang on about this a lot, but there is only one graduate level job for every six graduates (been a while since I have seen this stat so it's probably changed). It's good that the people who benefit the most from degrees pay for it once they are benefiting, and it should also encourage students to be a lot more selective about whether they study and what they study.

[Woodsey]

And if 45% of loans are never paid off, this is surely good evidence to suggest that too many people do degrees and they are not having the impact they should be having? I bang on about this a lot, but there is only one graduate level job for every six graduates (been a while since I have seen this stat so it's probably changed). It's good that the people who benefit the most from degrees pay for it once they are benefiting, and it should also encourage students to be a lot more selective about whether they study and what they study.

Totally agree, experience in recent years across our business is that many 'graduates' simply aren't up to it and probably shouldn't have bothered going to uni in the first place, they would probably have been better off learning a trade or something.

They also want massive promotions and to be earning £50k+ within a year. When quizzed about what they want to do within the business and what jobs they would like to develop into most of them don't have a clue, their real target is the £50k.......within a year obviously 

What they don't realise is most the people doing those £50k+ jobs did 10 years of hard graft and earned the right and got the experience to do those jobs.

Welcome to the want it all want it now culture, it's probably so they can put a pic on FB of their shiny new mercy company car 

[EvilPie]

And if 45% of loans are never paid off, this is surely good evidence to suggest that too many people do degrees and they are not having the impact they should be having? I bang on about this a lot, but there is only one graduate level job for every six graduates (been a while since I have seen this stat so it's probably changed). It's good that the people who benefit the most from degrees pay for it once they are benefiting, and it should also encourage students to be a lot more selective about whether they study and what they study.

Totally agree, experience in recent years across our business is that many 'graduates' simply aren't up to it and probably shouldn't have bothered going to uni in the first place, they would probably have been better off learning a trade or something.

They also want massive promotions and to be earning £50k+ within a year. When quizzed about what they want to do within the business and what jobs they would like to develop into most of them don't have a clue, their real target is the £50k.......within a year obviously 

What they don't realise is most the people doing those £50k+ jobs did 10 years of hard graft and earned the right and got the experience to do those jobs.

Welcome to the want it all want it now culture, it's probably so they can put a pic on FB of their shiny new mercy company car 

Social media is a huge problem when it comes to peoples expectations of real life.

People post pics of their holidays, cars etc. and everybody thinks that's normal and want it themselves. They don't realise that most of it is probably on finance or financed by parents or in a few instances has been funded by hard graft.

Wherever it came from they want it but without having to go through what it took that person to get it.

[DaveShoelace]

And if 45% of loans are never paid off, this is surely good evidence to suggest that too many people do degrees and they are not having the impact they should be having? I bang on about this a lot, but there is only one graduate level job for every six graduates (been a while since I have seen this stat so it's probably changed). It's good that the people who benefit the most from degrees pay for it once they are benefiting, and it should also encourage students to be a lot more selective about whether they study and what they study.

Totally agree, experience in recent years across our business is that many 'graduates' simply aren't up to it and probably shouldn't have bothered going to uni in the first place, they would probably have been better off learning a trade or something.

They also want massive promotions and to be earning £50k+ within a year. When quizzed about what they want to do within the business and what jobs they would like to develop into most of them don't have a clue, their real target is the £50k.......within a year obviously 

What they don't realise is most the people doing those £50k+ jobs did 10 years of hard graft and earned the right and got the experience to do those jobs.

Welcome to the want it all want it now culture, it's probably so they can put a pic on FB of their shiny new mercy company car 

Social media is a huge problem when it comes to peoples expectations of real life.

People post pics of their holidays, cars etc. and everybody thinks that's normal and want it themselves. They don't realise that most of it is probably on finance or financed by parents or in a few instances has been funded by hard graft.

Wherever it came from they want it but without having to go through what it took that person to get it.

Yup, we compare our 'behind the scenes' to somebody else's highlight reel. By all accounts Instagram is making young uns very depressed.

[rfgqqabc]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/ignore-the-scare-stories-from-remainers-over-chlorinated-chicken/

"What washing chicken in chlorine does achieve, however, is to kill off salmonella, which is endemic in raw chicken sold in Britain. For the consumer, the choice is pretty simple: would you rather increase your chlorine intake by one per cent – or remain at risk of salmonella poisoning through cross-contamination in the kitchen?"

How can people write such absolute nonsense? I have no opinion re chlorinated chicken but I knew salmonella was on the decline and it has been for years.

"British grocery stores and households do not refrigerate their eggs because 90per cent of store-bought eggs in the UK come from hens that have been vaccinated for salmonella."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2644251/Un-scrambling-truth-Why-American-eggs-ILLEGAL-sell-UK-vice-versa.html

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/598401/Salmonella_2016_Data.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/business/25vaccine.html

[Doobs]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/ignore-the-scare-stories-from-remainers-over-chlorinated-chicken/

"What washing chicken in chlorine does achieve, however, is to kill off salmonella, which is endemic in raw chicken sold in Britain. For the consumer, the choice is pretty simple: would you rather increase your chlorine intake by one per cent – or remain at risk of salmonella poisoning through cross-contamination in the kitchen?"

How can people write such absolute nonsense? I have no opinion re chlorinated chicken but I knew salmonella was on the decline and it has been for years.

"British grocery stores and households do not refrigerate their eggs because 90per cent of store-bought eggs in the UK come from hens that have been vaccinated for salmonella."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2644251/Un-scrambling-truth-Why-American-eggs-ILLEGAL-sell-UK-vice-versa.htmlt

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/598401/Salmonella_2016_Data.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/business/25vaccine.html

I am not planning on eating chlorinated chicken anytime soon, but egg laying chickens aren't the ones we eat?

[Marky147]

I eat whatever takes my fancy, and I'll worry about what happens, when it happens.

[rfgqqabc]

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/07/ignore-the-scare-stories-from-remainers-over-chlorinated-chicken/

"What washing chicken in chlorine does achieve, however, is to kill off salmonella, which is endemic in raw chicken sold in Britain. For the consumer, the choice is pretty simple: would you rather increase your chlorine intake by one per cent – or remain at risk of salmonella poisoning through cross-contamination in the kitchen?"

How can people write such absolute nonsense? I have no opinion re chlorinated chicken but I knew salmonella was on the decline and it has been for years.

"British grocery stores and households do not refrigerate their eggs because 90per cent of store-bought eggs in the UK come from hens that have been vaccinated for salmonella."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2644251/Un-scrambling-truth-Why-American-eggs-ILLEGAL-sell-UK-vice-versa.htmlt

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/598401/Salmonella_2016_Data.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/25/business/25vaccine.html

I am not planning on eating chlorinated chicken anytime soon, but egg laying chickens aren't the ones we eat?

Cases of Salmonella are still significantly down? Good point, I don't think anyone has enough data to look into egg/breast properly.