The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[Jon MW]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Doesn't that just confirm that we don't elect the people who are responsible for changing the EU?

The officials are elected - but by the MEP's not by "us"; and the commission is the only body in the EU that can instigate change (the European parliament can only discuss and amend).

Feel free to correct if my information is out of date.

[StuartHopkin]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

My god. Who cares if it's cringeworthy or spineless, our leaders have ballsed it up royally.

The EU haven't tried to teach us a lesson. They just said no cherry picking.

You seem to take pride in the worst kind of Brit?

[kukushkin88]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Doesn't that just confirm that we don't elect the people who are responsible for changing the EU?

The officials are elected - but by the MEP's not by "us"; and the commission is the only body in the EU that can instigate change (the European parliament can only discuss and amend).

Feel free to correct if my information is out of date.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

You’re right I think but that’s perfectly democratic. The article in The Economist explains it better than me. If the people we elect appoint the commissioners, we influence that process. I guess I didn’t know just how much the executive powers are held by the commissioners, albeit they are constantly answerable to elected officials.

[Pokerpops]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

I’ll accept that there is some measure of democratic process as outlined by the article. The EU bureaucrats are chosen by people who have been chosen by people who were chosen by elected politicians who were chosen by voters.


The closing paragraph of the article chosen to show us that this is, therefore, all fine and dandy...

Eurosceptics have a valid case against the EU, but not because its leaders are “unelected bureaucrats”. Rather, its bureaucrats are too insulated from democracy, and its democracy is not functioning well enough without a common demos to make it work.

[BigAdz]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Doesn't that just confirm that we don't elect the people who are responsible for changing the EU?

The officials are elected - but by the MEP's not by "us"; and the commission is the only body in the EU that can instigate change (the European parliament can only discuss and amend).

Feel free to correct if my information is out of date.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

You’re right I think but that’s perfectly democratic. The article in The Economist explains it better than me. If the people we elect appoint the commissioners, we influence that process. I guess I didn’t know just how much the executive powers are held by the commissioners, albeit they are constantly answerable to elected officials.

Plenty of reversals tonight mate.

Anyway, to feel like it's at least remotely reflective of our views i would want at least half of the available votes cast. Seems reasonable.

[Woodsey]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

We don’t elect the people that are responsible for changing the EU. That’s one of the major issues that makes it a less than satisfactory organisation.

I thought this but surely Kush cant be wrong?!

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2017/07/14/does-it-make-sense-to-refer-to-eu-officials-as-unelected-bureaucrats

Doesn't that just confirm that we don't elect the people who are responsible for changing the EU?

The officials are elected - but by the MEP's not by "us"; and the commission is the only body in the EU that can instigate change (the European parliament can only discuss and amend).

Feel free to correct if my information is out of date.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission

You’re right I think but that’s perfectly democratic. The article in The Economist explains it better than me. If the people we elect appoint the commissioners, we influence that process. I guess I didn’t know just how much the executive powers are held by the commissioners, albeit they are constantly answerable to elected officials.

Plenty of reversals tonight mate.

Anyway, to feel like it's at least remotely reflective of our views i would want at least half of the available votes cast. Seems reasonable.

48% not good enough to prevent whining then? 

[Pokerpops]

lol see, zoom straight to the numbers, like moths to a flame.

more pertinent question is do we know what "vassal" means?

incidentally, anybody who thinks EU reform was not required is welcome to make their case....

What reform did you have in mind? It’s a body that constantly changes and evolves, we elect the people that are responsible for bringing about that change when it is needed. It seems an OK system to me. I’d like to keep it the same.

mate earlier in this thread you said the UK were constantly objecting to all these proposed changes and evolutions, the only dissenting voice.

Yo...if the people we elect are always objecting...why'd you like to keep it the same?

First sentence: I didn’t.

Second sentence: It’s a hell of a muddled sentence but if you mean what I think you mean. That’s just democracy, we elect people, they then debate issues and make decisions on our behalf. It’s a deeply flawed system but it’s the best we have.

Although it’s all a bit nonsensical, right from when you made up the first sentence.

That was me.

Or it might have been Pokerpops.

No, it was me.

I’m Spartacus

[MANTIS01]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

My god. Who cares if it's cringeworthy or spineless, our leaders have ballsed it up royally.

The EU haven't tried to teach us a lesson. They just said no cherry picking.

You seem to take pride in the worst kind of Brit?

Think you’ve nailed it Stu.

This whole thing comes down to the fact Britain has lost it’s identity over the last few decades

Some people care about that a lot.

Some people don’t care about that at all.

[TightEnd]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

My god. Who cares if it's cringeworthy or spineless, our leaders have ballsed it up royally.

The EU haven't tried to teach us a lesson. They just said no cherry picking.

You seem to take pride in the worst kind of Brit?

Think you’ve nailed it Stu.

This whole thing comes down to the fact Britain has lost it’s identity over the last few decades

Some people care about that a lot.

Some people don’t care about that at all.

National identity changes in a globalised world. We are all more inter-connected, labour is more mobile (or is until its stopped being so by people who resist this change) 

I could go on but please read this. It's Irish but its pertinent

eg " to subscribe to any sort of exclusive idea of nationality will soon be an outdated concept"

https://www.irishtimes.com/student-hub/is-there-room-for-national-identity-in-a-globalised-world-1.2574125

Brexit is of course a resistance to this, harking back to a bye-gone era not in the hope of progress but in the mistaken belief that it "protects what we've got"

[TightEnd]

This is a quote from https://twitter.com/doctor_oxford?lang=en

" Truly disastrous news for UK pharmaceuticals. AstraZeneca - who supports tens of thousands of British jobs - has halted investment in UK because of Brexit. This is a tragedy for a once world-leading UK industry."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/10/15/astrazeneca-halts-uk-investments-due-brexit-uncertainties/

[TightEnd]

The Brexit Select Committee said this in Dec 2017:

“We do not currently see how it will be possible to reconcile there being no border with the Government’s policy of leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union”.

Hilary Benn, chairman "It is this policy which is the cause of the current stand-off."

[TightEnd]

Chris Grey

"The current chaos is the inevitable consequence of the incompatible red lines of government Brexit policy. Now we're reaching crunch point. My latest Brexit Blog post tries to make sense of what's going on, including May's statement to HoC, just up now"

 http://chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com/2018/10/britains-incompatible-red-lines-are.html

[TightEnd]

Incredibly, the outcome of Brexit now hinges on Arlene Foster -

https://reaction.life/incredibly-outcome-brexit-now-hinges-arlene-foster/

[TightEnd]

Donald Tusk says no deal brexit "more likely than ever before" but urges everyone not to give up, ahead of Wednesday's Council.

His letter to EU27:

https://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/press/press-releases/2018/10/15/invitation-letter-by-president-donald-tusk-to-the-members-of-the-european-council-ahead-of-their-meetings-on-17-and-18-october-2018/

[TightEnd]

Brexit has triggered an 87% drop in European nurses registering to work in the UK, as new research reveals Britain faces a shortfall of more than 20,000 staff.

Concerned?

https://www.ft.com/content/f0c23fdc-ce18-11e8-9fe5-24ad351828ab