The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[TightEnd]

I would urge everyone to read this, remain or leave, concerned or sanguine

Its a long read but its important.

the writer began on social media by saying

"Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. "

200,000 views later he put it in this PDF

It's fascinating

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

[TightEnd]

Here's an alternate source for the PDF version, if you're having problems (a couple of people yesterday told me they could only see a blank page)...


https://archive.org/download/brexit-truth-revised/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

[TightEnd]

this is a bit flippant but i like the analogy

"we always had a limited menu to pick from.

You've gone into a Greggs and are demanding that they steam you a lobster.

Now you're blaming the people who are going 'this was a bad idea and I don't think they even have any lobsters'

'oh, if you hadn't loudly and persuasively argued the lack of lobsters it wouldn't have emboldened them to refuse my lobster request.

It's your fault we're going to crash out of Greggs with No Lunch'

[StuartHopkin]

I would urge everyone to read this, remain or leave, concerned or sanguine

Its a long read but its important.

the writer began on social media by saying

"Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. "

200,000 views later he put it in this PDF

It's fascinating

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Good read

[RED-DOG]

This whole thing comes down to the fact Britain has lost it’s identity over the last few decades

Some people care about that a lot.

Some people don’t care about that at all.

I'm not being facetious, I'm genuinely interested in this.

What is " The whole thing" how would you define Britain's identity, and what, or who exactly has lost it?

[RickBFA]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45875599

Bit of good news to brighten the gloom and doom.

Wage increases at 3.1% and unemployment down a further 47,000.

Not burying my head in sand, just giving factual information rather than speculative projections (there will be plenty on here happy to post the facts if/when we get a downturn).

[kukushkin88]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45875599

Bit of good news to brighten the gloom and doom.

Wage increases at 3.1% and unemployment down a further 47,000.

Not burying my head in sand, just giving factual information rather than speculative projections (there will be plenty on here happy to post the facts if/when we get a downturn).

The article is full of qualifiers as to why the news is not really that good though. The article is actually a bit irresponsible imo, pandering to the idea that you can perceive the numbers differently depending on which narrative you prefer to believe. There’s some positive in there though for sure :-)

[hhyftrftdr]

Apologise and crawl back on the same terms to chants of shame shame shame? What a thoroughly cringeworthy & spineless suggestion.

Remain do chat on about the marginal nature of the referendum, it's just the 52% like. It gives them hope that such a slender decision will somehow be reversed. 

But let's be absolutely clear that 100% of British people thought EU reform was required.

So wait a second, the current suggestion is to ignore 100% of British people, to crawl back apologising, to an unelected mob, who have sought to teach us a lesson and bully us, to a union with a precarious future, that we never agree with. Just go back and keep our heads down like, stop causing trouble and just accept being told what to do even though we don't agree. What a fucking brainwave. It's just about the most un-British thing I've ever heard of.

The problem with Remoan argument is that it's ALL about economics ALL about wealth. Bit rich coming from the Left like but whatever. When in fact there are loads of things people hold dear over and above the material. How are people going to feel in the longer term future? What are the longer term social impacts of Brexit? Just presenting a pie chart about immediate import tariffs is simply one variable, what about the rest? We'll need a proper long term study across a generation to even begin to draw conclusions about overall effect.

All these scientists killed poker with their pure focus on maths and the above suggestion shows these bots are absolutely clueless about how people actually feel, what their desires are. It's just moaning at people because they don't accept the numbers. Brits crawling back apologising? Ha! Fucking ridiculous mate. 

My god. Who cares if it's cringeworthy or spineless, our leaders have ballsed it up royally.

The EU haven't tried to teach us a lesson. They just said no cherry picking.

You seem to take pride in the worst kind of Brit?

Think you’ve nailed it Stu.

This whole thing comes down to the fact Britain has lost it’s identity over the last few decades

Some people care about that a lot.

Some people don’t care about that at all.

What identity do you feel you've lost in the last few decades that will suddenly return when/if we leave the EU?

[apezmonkeyz]

Never commented on this thread as I generally keep political thoughts to myself. However I voted brexit and feel that we are all talking about some issues but completely ignoring others.

1. Happy to reduce the number of people coming to this country. But not if they are workers. By stopping Europeans who don't want to work... great. But I'm happy for anyone who wants to work to stay. By restricting european people it doesn't solve the issue. My friend who is English but of Pakistan culture just bought his new wife into the country. She speaks no English. She is not enrolling for English lessons and has no intention of ever working in a paid job. When will this conversation include non Europeans ?

2. I would like uk people to get more chances to got jobs. However we are at the point where if you want a job you can get one as unemployment falls. In order to get more uk people in jobs we need to reduce some benefits so that the have no choice. We keep hearing we will lose lots of farm workers yet we pay people to stay at home. This needs addressing. (I'm aware some people cannot work and need support and they are not the people I'm talking about here). Some people need forcing to take these jobs.

Thoughts ?

[kukushkin88]

Never commented on this thread as I generally keep political thoughts to myself. However I voted brexit and feel that we are all talking about some issues but completely ignoring others.

1. Happy to reduce the number of people coming to this country. But not if they are workers. By stopping Europeans who don't want to work... great. But I'm happy for anyone who wants to work to stay. By restricting european people it doesn't solve the issue. My friend who is English but of Pakistan culture just bought his new wife into the country. She speaks no English. She is not enrolling for English lessons and has no intention of ever working in a paid job. When will this conversation include non Europeans ?

2. I would like uk people to get more chances to got jobs. However we are at the point where if you want a job you can get one as unemployment falls. In order to get more uk people in jobs we need to reduce some benefits so that the have no choice. We keep hearing we will lose lots of farm workers yet we pay people to stay at home. This needs addressing. (I'm aware some people cannot work and need support and they are not the people I'm talking about here). Some people need forcing to take these jobs.

Thoughts ?

Welcome to the thread. It would be easier to provide a good answer if we knew how you formulated your current view. Some of the assumptions look a little wide of the mark to me.

[Pokerpops]

I would urge everyone to read this, remain or leave, concerned or sanguine

Its a long read but its important.

the writer began on social media by saying

"Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. "

200,000 views later he put it in this PDF

It's fascinating

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Where was he when the referendum campaign was happening?

When the Remain side were outlining vague threats about how it would be difficult for us and Leavers were allowed to just say WTO with nobody seriously challenging them.

Would this have changed my view of the EU, no.
Would it have changed my vote in the referendum. Almost certainly.

Does it change anything now? I still don’t see how, unless Mrs May is prepared to be the sacrificial offering and is planning on just saying ‘Brexit means we stay’.

In Hand Analysis terms we’re in ‘Fold pre, but as played it’s a clear all-in and hope that villain folds’ territory.

[StuartHopkin]

I would urge everyone to read this, remain or leave, concerned or sanguine

Its a long read but its important.

the writer began on social media by saying

"Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. "

200,000 views later he put it in this PDF

It's fascinating

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Where was he when the referendum campaign was happening?

When the Remain side were outlining vague threats about how it would be difficult for us and Leavers were allowed to just say WTO with nobody seriously challenging them.

Would this have changed my view of the EU, no.
Would it have changed my vote in the referendum. Almost certainly.

Does it change anything now? I still don’t see how, unless Mrs May is prepared to be the sacrificial offering and is planning on just saying ‘Brexit means we stay’.

In Hand Analysis terms we’re in ‘Fold pre, but as played it’s a clear all-in and hope that villain folds’ territory.

Would be a bit like the villain folding the king high straight flush just in case we had a better straight flush though....

[buffyslayer1]

Never commented on this thread as I generally keep political thoughts to myself. However I voted brexit and feel that we are all talking about some issues but completely ignoring others.

1. Happy to reduce the number of people coming to this country. But not if they are workers. By stopping Europeans who don't want to work... great. But I'm happy for anyone who wants to work to stay. By restricting european people it doesn't solve the issue. My friend who is English but of Pakistan culture just bought his new wife into the country. She speaks no English. She is not enrolling for English lessons and has no intention of ever working in a paid job. When will this conversation include non Europeans ?

2. I would like uk people to get more chances to got jobs. However we are at the point where if you want a job you can get one as unemployment falls. In order to get more uk people in jobs we need to reduce some benefits so that the have no choice. We keep hearing we will lose lots of farm workers yet we pay people to stay at home. This needs addressing. (I'm aware some people cannot work and need support and they are not the people I'm talking about here). Some people need forcing to take these jobs.

Thoughts ?

Why do you have the idea that lots of Europeans are coming over here not to work?
I am sure there are some but the majority of Euro's that come over are economic migrants. I believe the levels of employment among non UK people is roughly the same as UK citizens. Your post implies that people come over here to get benefits?

I was looking for some data which splits out EU and non EU immigration as I think if i recall (read this a while ago) that non - EU immigration employment is a lot lower then EU immigration. A big part of which is non EU immigration has a lot of asylum seekers. However, I can't find anything at the moment on the splits and don't want to spend hours trawling through various studies.

I think it was from a podcast called more or less behind the stats (or facts) by the BBC, where they broke down the cost of immigration and showed that EU migration was a massive net benefit when you factored in all the variables (including costs on infrastructure etc) and non EU migration was a massive negative in this respect.  

Also you are right about restricting European people doesn't solve the problem (if you think there is one) as about half the UK's immigration comes from outside the EU over which we have full control.

[kukushkin88]

I would urge everyone to read this, remain or leave, concerned or sanguine

Its a long read but its important.

the writer began on social media by saying

"Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. "

200,000 views later he put it in this PDF

It's fascinating

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Where was he when the referendum campaign was happening?

When the Remain side were outlining vague threats about how it would be difficult for us and Leavers were allowed to just say WTO with nobody seriously challenging them.

Would this have changed my view of the EU, no.
Would it have changed my vote in the referendum. Almost certainly.

Does it change anything now? I still don’t see how, unless Mrs May is prepared to be the sacrificial offering and is planning on just saying ‘Brexit means we stay’.

In Hand Analysis terms we’re in ‘Fold pre, but as played it’s a clear all-in and hope that villain folds’ territory.

Would be a bit like the villain folding the king high straight flush just in case we had a better straight flush though....

Not forgetting our hand has been face up for ~ 2 years as well.

[buffyslayer1]

I would urge everyone to read this, remain or leave, concerned or sanguine

Its a long read but its important.

the writer began on social media by saying

"Here's the truth about Brexit, the "punishment" some people claim the EU wants to inflict on us, the full horrific consequences of no deal, and the dangers lurking behind any deal we reach. Buckle in, it's pretty long. Better to be thorough than to leave anything out. "

200,000 views later he put it in this PDF

It's fascinating

https://www.docdroid.net/m3YvOS5/brexit-truth-revised.pdf

Where was he when the referendum campaign was happening?

When the Remain side were outlining vague threats about how it would be difficult for us and Leavers were allowed to just say WTO with nobody seriously challenging them.

Would this have changed my view of the EU, no.
Would it have changed my vote in the referendum. Almost certainly.

Does it change anything now? I still don’t see how, unless Mrs May is prepared to be the sacrificial offering and is planning on just saying ‘Brexit means we stay’.

In Hand Analysis terms we’re in ‘Fold pre, but as played it’s a clear all-in and hope that villain folds’ territory.

Good post. Remains campaign was horrifically executed and was very negative.

I know this pdf was negative but there was substance to it unlike the general the sky will fall approach of those in charge of remain.