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Poll
Question: How will you vote on December 12th 2019
Conservative - 19 (33.9%)
Labour - 12 (21.4%)
SNP - 2 (3.6%)
Lib Dem - 8 (14.3%)
Brexit - 1 (1.8%)
Green - 6 (10.7%)
Other - 2 (3.6%)
Spoil - 0 (0%)
Not voting - 6 (10.7%)
Total Voters: 55

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Author Topic: The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged  (Read 2180126 times)
Pokerpops
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« Reply #20865 on: September 17, 2019, 06:22:26 PM »

Didn't the Lib Dem surge just happen because people faced the reality of voting for a party with an ambiguous Brexit position, and not because Vince Cable was better than Jo Swinson.   Since she has taken over their support has remained at the level it was when she took over.

I don't realloy see why a 2nd referendum is so great, have people not learned anything from having one before?  And I don't see how a 1-1 score really helps.  I also don't think that there isn't much wrong in having a manifesto with a simple Brexit policy.   

Agree its legit fair etc to take this position into a GE and seek a mandate for it. Be interesting to see if it turns out to be a vote winner or loser

It’s fine to take the position, but it’s neither liberal, nor democratic.

But if the Lib Dem’s get voted into power on the basis of the position then it becomes democratic.

All rather hypothetical anyway, but at what level of support would it become democratic to simply ignore the referendum result?
It’s probable highly likely that a party could be elected on the strength of <17.4MM votes. If the Lib Dem’s win a majority on this single issue, but at around the 12MM vote mark where does that leave us?

and while we’re at it, how many fairies can sit on one pinhead?
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« Reply #20866 on: September 17, 2019, 06:44:29 PM »

Academic, childish dog whistling to fuming Waitrose shoppers. This shows beyond peradventure that the LDs are unelectable

n.b - new word learned today
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« Reply #20867 on: September 17, 2019, 06:47:36 PM »

In other news, Sam Gyimah just forgot that his affected speech requires him to drop g's at the end of words ending ing
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« Reply #20868 on: September 17, 2019, 10:56:27 PM »

Didn't the Lib Dem surge just happen because people faced the reality of voting for a party with an ambiguous Brexit position, and not because Vince Cable was better than Jo Swinson.   Since she has taken over their support has remained at the level it was when she took over.

I don't realloy see why a 2nd referendum is so great, have people not learned anything from having one before?  And I don't see how a 1-1 score really helps.  I also don't think that there isn't much wrong in having a manifesto with a simple Brexit policy.   

The response to just revoking will be riots across the country. You can't just turn up and revoke something that 17.4m voted for. Their poliy is also silly, because there will be so much opposition to it. It's an immature policy & the backlash to Jo Swinson is clear.

At least a second ref gives a fairer for everyone.
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« Reply #20869 on: September 18, 2019, 02:13:32 AM »

After seeing Cameron back on the scene, all be it to sell his book, its amazing to see people try and blame him for the mess we are in.

People voted to leave because of belief in £350m going to the NHS.

People voted leave because they believed Turkey would join the EU.

People voted leave because they thought suddenly it would stop people coming to the UK, based on Farage's gruesome poster.

The focus for Cameron was to finally unite the country and put the Europe question to bed. I don't think he would ever have imagined the lengths that Boris and Nigel would go to & obviously underestimating the number of racists and less intelligent folk we have in this country.

If you take out the folk who voted for the above, then we do not have Brexit.
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« Reply #20870 on: September 18, 2019, 07:45:21 AM »

After seeing Cameron back on the scene, all be it to sell his book, its amazing to see people try and blame him for the mess we are in.

People voted to leave because of belief in £350m going to the NHS.

People voted leave because they believed Turkey would join the EU.

People voted leave because they thought suddenly it would stop people coming to the UK, based on Farage's gruesome poster.

The focus for Cameron was to finally unite the country and put the Europe question to bed. I don't think he would ever have imagined the lengths that Boris and Nigel would go to & obviously underestimating the number of racists and less intelligent folk we have in this country.

If you take out the folk who voted for the above, then we do not have Brexit.

Cameron deserves all that he gets. He wasn’t attempting to ‘unite the country’, he was trying to unite the Tory Party because that would allow him to stay in power. Having succumbed to the pressure for a referendum he made so many errors in it’s presentation and then led the utterly ineffective Remain campaign. After which he ran away to his Shepherd’s Hut when it didn’t go his way. Twat.
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« Reply #20871 on: September 18, 2019, 07:47:49 AM »

After seeing Cameron back on the scene, all be it to sell his book, its amazing to see people try and blame him for the mess we are in.

People voted to leave because of belief in £350m going to the NHS.

People voted leave because they believed Turkey would join the EU.

People voted leave because they thought suddenly it would stop people coming to the UK, based on Farage's gruesome poster.

The focus for Cameron was to finally unite the country and put the Europe question to bed. I don't think he would ever have imagined the lengths that Boris and Nigel would go to & obviously underestimating the number of racists and less intelligent folk we have in this country.

If you take out the folk who voted for the above, then we do not have Brexit.

Yeah and if Barkley had scored that penalty it would of been a draw
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Jon MW
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« Reply #20872 on: September 18, 2019, 09:22:31 AM »

Didn't the Lib Dem surge just happen because people faced the reality of voting for a party with an ambiguous Brexit position, and not because Vince Cable was better than Jo Swinson.   Since she has taken over their support has remained at the level it was when she took over.

I don't realloy see why a 2nd referendum is so great, have people not learned anything from having one before?  And I don't see how a 1-1 score really helps.  I also don't think that there isn't much wrong in having a manifesto with a simple Brexit policy.   

Agree its legit fair etc to take this position into a GE and seek a mandate for it. Be interesting to see if it turns out to be a vote winner or loser

It’s fine to take the position, but it’s neither liberal, nor democratic.

But if the Lib Dem’s get voted into power on the basis of the position then it becomes democratic.

All rather hypothetical anyway, but at what level of support would it become democratic to simply ignore the referendum result?
...

When you have a General Election - you ignore the General Election result you had previously - they're both democratic results though.
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« Reply #20873 on: September 18, 2019, 09:34:55 AM »

Wonderful collage of footage doing the rounds at the moment of Swinson telling the Lib Dems how proud Paddy Ashdown would of been of her, and then one of his final clips. Post the referendum telling the camera he would be disgusted by any Lib Dem that ignored the democratic nature of the vote and tried to get it reversed, changed etc.

Someone get her on Neill or Marr and show her that.

Should take the wind out of her sails a bit.
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« Reply #20874 on: September 18, 2019, 11:02:05 AM »

Wonderful collage of footage doing the rounds at the moment of Swinson telling the Lib Dems how proud Paddy Ashdown would of been of her, and then one of his final clips. Post the referendum telling the camera he would be disgusted by any Lib Dem that ignored the democratic nature of the vote and tried to get it reversed, changed etc.

Someone get her on Neill or Marr and show her that.

Should take the wind out of her sails a bit.

Maybe it won't, given it is pretty clear that wasn't his view when he died?

http://paddyashdown.co.uk/articles/index.php/2018/01/18/uk-foreign-policy-after-trump-2/

Lastly we have to deal with the consequences of our own folly.

I make no secret of it.

We Lib Dems seek to reverse Brexit, which has already resulted in a catastrophic shrinkage of our ability to protect our interests abroad.

I reject the notion that, in seeking to reverse Brexit we are acting either undemocratically or unpatriotically. Any more than, for instance, the noble Lord Lord Forsyth, who I know to be both a democrat and a patriot, was offending either principle by seeking to change the country’s mind after the 1975 referendum.

...

Europe now faces an isolationist US President to our west, the most aggressive Russian President of recent times to our east and all around us, economic powers growing up, some already stronger than any single European nation.

The right reaction to this new context, is not to allow ourselves to broken up and scattered, but to deepen European co-operation and co-ordination.

So, inside the single market and customs union, or out – inside the EU or separated from it – our only sensible foreign policy is to proceed in lock step with our European neighbours.

I can put it no better than the Government’s own paper on post-Brexit foreign policy. Britain’s future relationship with the EU should be – and I quote – : “unprecedented in its breadth, taking in cooperation on foreign policy, defence and security, and development.”


Precisely My Lords.

The question we debate today is, does the Government mean it, or will the country’s interests once again be hi-jacked by the anti-European prejudices of the Tory Party?

 
@paddyashdown
 22 Nov 2018

We see clearly now who the ERG playgroup really are. Bad judgement, poor timing, over-grown egos, fantasy politics, prep-school tactics - they are less a political movement - more a Beano comic strip about Lord Snooty's little rag-tag gang throwing ink-balls at the headmistress.


 
@paddyashdown
 15 Nov 2018

This Brexit shambles exposes how far the Conservatives Party has degenerated. For all her faults, Mrs May remains the only adult in the room. At the top, the rest are just a bunch of self obsessed pygmies, charlatans and incompetents who should not be allowed to run a whelk stall

@paddyashdown
 23 Aug 2018

The argument against a People's Vote on the final deal is simple. The people cannot be allowed to find out they were lied to and must not be permitted to change their minds.


etc
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Sheriff Fatman
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« Reply #20875 on: September 18, 2019, 01:06:50 PM »

After seeing Cameron back on the scene, all be it to sell his book, its amazing to see people try and blame him for the mess we are in.

People voted to leave because of belief in £350m going to the NHS.

People voted leave because they believed Turkey would join the EU.

People voted leave because they thought suddenly it would stop people coming to the UK, based on Farage's gruesome poster.

The focus for Cameron was to finally unite the country and put the Europe question to bed. I don't think he would ever have imagined the lengths that Boris and Nigel would go to & obviously underestimating the number of racists and less intelligent folk we have in this country.

If you take out the folk who voted for the above, then we do not have Brexit.

People got to have a nonsensical binary vote in the first place because of Cameron's attempt to resolve an internal Tory party issue with a sledgehammer.
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« Reply #20876 on: September 18, 2019, 05:18:59 PM »

 from twitter

No.10 & Brussels are discussing saying that a condition of any deal is that no further extension will be offered. In other words, if MPs won’t take the deal, it'll be no deal


Good...lets get a deal done.
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« Reply #20877 on: September 19, 2019, 11:06:25 AM »

Didn't the Lib Dem surge just happen because people faced the reality of voting for a party with an ambiguous Brexit position, and not because Vince Cable was better than Jo Swinson.   Since she has taken over their support has remained at the level it was when she took over.

I don't realloy see why a 2nd referendum is so great, have people not learned anything from having one before?  And I don't see how a 1-1 score really helps.  I also don't think that there isn't much wrong in having a manifesto with a simple Brexit policy.   

Agree its legit fair etc to take this position into a GE and seek a mandate for it. Be interesting to see if it turns out to be a vote winner or loser

It’s fine to take the position, but it’s neither liberal, nor democratic.

But if the Lib Dem’s get voted into power on the basis of the position then it becomes democratic.

All rather hypothetical anyway, but at what level of support would it become democratic to simply ignore the referendum result?
...

When you have a General Election - you ignore the General Election result you had previously - they're both democratic results though.

1. We know, when a GE is held, that it is a once every 4 or 5 years vote.
2. The result of the previous GE has already been acted on.
3. We don't ignore the previous result because we take into account the outcome in practical terms when we vote.

The referendum was presented as a one-off chance to make a decision that would have a long term impact. If the vote had been 52% Remain would we be being offered the chance of another go?

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« Reply #20878 on: September 19, 2019, 11:10:22 AM »

In another example of how the EU wants to control the actions of member states the Irish Government is having to fight them in the courts to avoid collecting £14bn in taxes from Apple.


 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49724786
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« Reply #20879 on: September 19, 2019, 12:17:40 PM »

Didn't the Lib Dem surge just happen because people faced the reality of voting for a party with an ambiguous Brexit position, and not because Vince Cable was better than Jo Swinson.   Since she has taken over their support has remained at the level it was when she took over.

I don't realloy see why a 2nd referendum is so great, have people not learned anything from having one before?  And I don't see how a 1-1 score really helps.  I also don't think that there isn't much wrong in having a manifesto with a simple Brexit policy.   

Agree its legit fair etc to take this position into a GE and seek a mandate for it. Be interesting to see if it turns out to be a vote winner or loser

It’s fine to take the position, but it’s neither liberal, nor democratic.

But if the Lib Dem’s get voted into power on the basis of the position then it becomes democratic.

All rather hypothetical anyway, but at what level of support would it become democratic to simply ignore the referendum result?
...

When you have a General Election - you ignore the General Election result you had previously - they're both democratic results though.

1. We know, when a GE is held, that it is a once every 4 or 5 years vote.
2. The result of the previous GE has already been acted on.
3. We don't ignore the previous result because we take into account the outcome in practical terms when we vote.

The referendum was presented as a one-off chance to make a decision that would have a long term impact. If the vote had been 52% Remain would we be being offered the chance of another go?



All referendum are one offs.

Scotland voted not to have independence - does that mean they should never get the chance to have another referendum with the same question?

It's irrelevant whether another referendum would be offered if remain marginally won - the point is that it could be.

If a referendum is democratic then running the same referendum again is still democratic.
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