PLO10 6max - Flop decision heads up pot facing big check raise

[Young_gun]

Zoom PLO10 6max - $0.05-£0.10
UTG playing $14.91
Me OTB playing $21.71
No history

Pre flop:
Villain opens $0.35 - I raise to $1 with   - They call

Flop:  
Villain checks, i Bet $1.10 into $2.15 pot
Villain re-raises to $5.36 with $8.55 ( i have $19 behind)
I fold

Firstly 3 bet on the button, is this a standard type of 3b hand ? 150 bigs deep seemed about right.

Flop obviously bet, but is b/f a bit weak here or standard?

I obviously have bottom straight but only redraw to back door nut flush although as i have 3 spades less likely. K10 obviously they will have alot here or even other hands they have monster redraws and we cant ever be in good shape?

havent played much Omaha in a while so just want to get my thinking correct

Boom if easier : http://www.boomplayer.com/en/poker-hands/Boom/15406893_987870CAB1

[GreekStein]

Without reads on the opponent I don't like the 3-bet. Our hand doesn't flop particularly well or work together well.

We get dominated a lot and thus in trouble.

[tikay]

Think I want to get to the flop as cheaply as possible & then re-assess. I'm not raising pre with this, as Cos notes, it's not much of a hand in PLO terms. Think of cards that work together, & combo draws. Put those two together, & we've got some playable ammo. 

In PLO - imo - we want to see flops before going silly.

[mulhuzz]

Thoughts on c/c flop?

[stacksaa]

If we check call the flop what cards on the turn (apart from spades) are we hoping for that if we get bet into again we can call off?

Im not sure about the 3b on the button here not sure if the zoom dynamic makes this standard tbh but I think flatting in position would be better. As played I think its a sigh fold as I cant see how we are going to improve on the turn or river

[Honeybadger]

Thoughts on checking back the flop?

FYP. Hero is IP.

@ OP: Checking back the flop should be strongly considered IMO. Betting (for value and protection/equity denial) is good vs a loose passive player who will usually check-call with his FDs and two pair/trips type hands. Versus competent/non-passive players it is often better to check this back and call most non-heart turns (and bet blank turns if checked to). The beauty of being in position is that you can check-back a hand like this, pot controlling with a non-nutted hand that has no redraws, and still get to protect your equity on the turn (when, btw, your equity against something like two pair plus a FD is way better than it was on the flop) since you can bet the turn when checked to.

As played, folding to the c/r seems essential.

3betting preflop is... errr... highly optional.

Based on this HH and the other HH you posted in your diary I would make a tentative inference that you are perhaps overplaying hands in certain spots, believing this is 'standard'.

[pleno1]

We definitely want to be 3betting a LOT in position to maximize our ev but this hand wouldn't go into that range imo.

[Young_gun]

Thoughts on checking back the flop?

FYP. Hero is IP.

@ OP: Checking back the flop should be strongly considered IMO. Betting (for value and protection/equity denial) is good vs a loose passive player who will usually check-call with his FDs and two pair/trips type hands. Versus competent/non-passive players it is often better to check this back and call most non-heart turns (and bet blank turns if checked to). The beauty of being in position is that you can check-back a hand like this, pot controlling with a non-nutted hand that has no redraws, and still get to protect your equity on the turn (when, btw, your equity against something like two pair plus a FD is way better than it was on the flop) since you can bet the turn when checked to.

As played, folding to the c/r seems essential.

3betting preflop is... errr... highly optional.

Based on this HH and the other HH you posted in your diary I would make a tentative inference that you are perhaps overplaying hands in certain spots, believing this is 'standard'.

thanks for your thoughtw btw don't have a diary but I commented on someone's plo in the rail which u might be thinking off

I thought 3bet pre is fine in position, oops I certainly wouldn't

[Young_gun]

We definitely want to be 3betting a LOT in position to maximize our ev but this hand wouldn't go into that range imo.

Thanks pleno, I wasn't really 3b for value but didn't have a feeling OR was that strong so to take some initiative, give myself more chance to win post flop. Weird hand to 3b I guess but maybe the reason i done this was more as otb suited ace and few hidden straight potential

[mulhuzz]

We definitely want to be 3betting a LOT in position to maximize our ev but this hand wouldn't go into that range imo.

Thanks pleno, I wasn't really 3b for value but didn't have a feeling OR was that strong so to take some initiative, give myself more chance to win post flop. Weird hand to 3b I guess but maybe the reason i done this was more as otb suited ace and few hidden straight potential

Three betting for anything that isn't value is likely a bad idea at plo10z. Especially without a read. Read what lil Dave wrote about playability in the other PLO thread, it's very good advice imo.

Also Honeybadger advice too.

[Young_gun]

We definitely want to be 3betting a LOT in position to maximize our ev but this hand wouldn't go into that range imo.

Thanks pleno, I wasn't really 3b for value but didn't have a feeling OR was that strong so to take some initiative, give myself more chance to win post flop. Weird hand to 3b I guess but maybe the reason i done this was more as otb suited ace and few hidden straight potential

Three betting for anything that isn't value is likely a bad idea at plo10z. Especially without a read. Read what lil Dave wrote about playability in the other PLO thread, it's very good advice imo.

Also Honeybadger advice too.

Most certainly will re-read it again thanks

[Honeybadger]

thanks for your thoughtw btw don't have a diary but I commented on someone's plo in the rail which u might be thinking off

Ha, sorry. I thought for some weird reason that the OP of this thread was stacksaa. He posted a hand in his Beginner PLO Advice 'diary' (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=65785.0) and this is what I was referring to. My mistake.

[Oxford_HRV]

Just my 2 cents
 You should strongly consider flatting mainly all of your mid/strong hands in position and get working on crushing your post flop game at plo10z because its not like the higher stakes games where everyone goes ballistic to get a small spr down the streets and pressurise you in to tough spots working with very solid ranges. 9 times out of 10 I'd say if you 3b the btn here at plo100z+ from 150bb you will get 4b by utg as a non reg. And that's horrible even with hands like AJT8ds
  people rarely bluff post flop at this level in 3b pots so exploitatively flatting the button to utg raises you can mimimise higher variance and gauge a sense of how people play on certain textures, you may pick up that when people do bluff, they mostly have tendencies of overplaying their strong starting hands a little too much in single raised pots. also hands go multiway much less often at this level making decisions easier. People do call way too wide at this level, but 3bing AT86 is an over adjustment, calling more and playing more is a better idea imo. I'm not advocating calling all the time forever from now on as there are obvs going to be spots you can feel in game to 3b but you should be calling a lot, as a ton of good knowledge is there to learn by building up your post flop skill.

Standard type of 3b hands for me in this spot would be likely good double pairs and bad double pairs, some sexy mid range hands like 3578 every now and then and very very strong rundowns with nut suits AKQ/Jx very good KKxx and all AAxx

This flop is definitely not a bet for me unless you have some sort of redraw its all over villains range and their ranges equity is too strong with two cards to come! half pot is very weak to continue with on this texture, so consider checking instead of betting pot then having to be folding to a raise.

@honeybadger what do you mean by betting here for equity denial vs a loose/passive player is good

[stacksaa]

thanks for your thoughtw btw don't have a diary but I commented on someone's plo in the rail which u might be thinking off

Ha, sorry. I thought for some weird reason that the OP of this thread was stacksaa. He posted a hand in his Beginner PLO Advice 'diary' (http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=65785.0) and this is what I was referring to. My mistake.

Haha yes that is me overplaying hands in certain spots something I realised last night when I went through my HH from the weekend and certainly need to work on!!

It's not a diary (yet) but who know its could go that way a micro PLO blog could be fun!!

[tikay]

Just my 2 cents
 You should strongly consider flatting mainly all of your mid/strong hands in position and get working on crushing your post flop game at plo10z because its not like the higher stakes games where everyone goes ballistic to get a small spr down the streets and pressurise you in to tough spots working with very solid ranges. 9 times out of 10 I'd say if you 3b the btn here at plo100z+ from 150bb you will get 4b by utg as a non reg. And that's horrible even with hands like AJT8ds
  people rarely bluff post flop at this level in 3b pots so exploitatively flatting the button to utg raises you can mimimise higher variance and gauge a sense of how people play on certain textures, you may pick up that when people do bluff, they mostly have tendencies of overplaying their strong starting hands a little too much in single raised pots. also hands go multiway much less often at this level making decisions easier. People do call way too wide at this level, but 3bing AT86 is an over adjustment, calling more and playing more is a better idea imo. I'm not advocating calling all the time forever from now on as there are obvs going to be spots you can feel in game to 3b but you should be calling a lot, as a ton of good knowledge is there to learn by building up your post flop skill.

Standard type of 3b hands for me in this spot would be likely good double pairs and bad double pairs, some sexy mid range hands like 3578 every now and then and very very strong rundowns with nut suits AKQ/Jx very good KKxx and all AAxx

This flop is definitely not a bet for me unless you have some sort of redraw its all over villains range and their ranges equity is too strong with two cards to come! half pot is very weak to continue with on this texture, so consider checking instead of betting pot then having to be folding to a raise.

@honeybadger what do you mean by betting here for equity denial vs a loose/passive player is good

I think that's great advice, especially the emboldened part.

For someone who is relatively new to PLO, they need to understand how different it is to NLH.

In this particular case, & many like it, let's get to the flop - that's where the play of the hand really starts. The flop IS where our hand, & play, is defined, not pre flop.

"Punting" everything pre, as a newbie, will end badly. As a small stakes player, you can turn a profit at PLO, just by doing the basics well. Profitable PLO requires lots of different skills, but none more important than starting hand ranges. Playing bad starting hands inevitably ends up putting us in difficult spots, time after time. I'm only talking "recreational" or small stakes here of course, but I believe this strongly.

The vast majority of small stakes PLO & PLO8 players have really bad understanding of starting hand ranges. And that is where our profit will arise. We don't need to fancy dan, or to think Level 5. Small Stakes players don't think Level 5, so it's pointless trying.

All imo, of course, & I'll bow (grudgingly) to the greater wisdom of the likes of Honeybadger & DegenDave.