It's mark up time of the year again!

[Rexas]

Adam, I just think it's different when someone who is actively promoting himself through twitch is using phrases like that, rando morons and utter noobs don't want to be told by someone pretty well known that that's what they are. In the pub it's mates calling each other names, not a professional player who may be someone they look up to. But hey, what can you do.

[rfgqqabc]

Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no. 

I guess this is just a difference in experience, I started out playing in the pubs around where I lived and I definitely know people that confine their play to those pubs because what they've either read/heard has made them feel nervous and inferior. As someone who used to be a total loose cannon and still can be on occasion, I've seen what sort of damage this can do from both sides, and I won't ever stop feeling embarrassed by how I've behaved in the past.

I started playing off in a pub league too. It was in a conservative club in Goole. It was full of lots of banter and insults. I can't imagine a single person there complaining at the word moron. Most people there played at the pub because poker was/is a social experience for them. The punters tended to play in a cash game at the end of the tournament and the drunkards just got larruped. I never heard too much outright abuse, but I'm sure words much harsher than moron were used to describe other players and I didn't think it affected anyone's gaming experience.  Moron is just a word for fucks sake. I didn't mean to imply Dan's choice of word is correct, I'm just amazed at the reaction some of it has caused. People have judged his character because of an incidental turn of phrase which describes what he meant to, in an accurate but derogatory way. People are actually getting insulted because Dan called new players in the WSOP main morons. These aren't real people, you don't need to get offended for them. If Dan was ranting in a live tournament or on his twitch stream then I would agree with you. But getting offended for hypothetical people because of it is ridiculous. Tikay judging someones character and intelligence on the back of a few forum posts after he is called out on a forum he is not a regular member of is pretty hostile too. I think he put an excellent point across in a patronizing manner but I imagine like Dan he was a bit annoyed at the time of writing so I won't berate him about daring to insult my friends intelligence over nothing and instead cut him so slack by actually trying to understand what he means.

 Does it surprise me that Dan used a turn of phrase he normally wouldn't after reading this topic? No. Its perfectly understandable. Just like using the term random moron to describe a completely anonymous hypothetical figure in the WSOP Main is fine in my opinion.


fuck shit ***** fuck shit *****

Are you seriously getting upset because Tikay suggested your friend might not be as intelligent as Clive Sinclair?

No lol, I dont know the guy at all how could i? I just don't think Tikay can fairly assume the other way, perhaps he can. I'm more curious as to why the phrase random morons has triggered such a response.

[Rexas]

No lol, I dont know the guy at all how could i? I just don't think Tikay can fairly assume the other way, perhaps he can. I'm more curious as to why the phrase random morons has triggered such a response.

Because one of the points I was trying to get across in my OP is that charging high, unjustified mark up is, in my opinion, arrogant, and the referral to people playing the event you're selling for as rando morons and utter noobs is another incarnation of the same problem.

[The Camel]

When someone says "DIAGF" to an opponent, do they really want that person to die in a grease fire?

When I say people over 65 shouldn't be allowed to vote, do I really mean that?

People say stuff to make a point, exaggerating a position or a thought to drive that point home.

And anyone who disagrees with me can fuck off and die.

[Flash92]

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hard to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

Brilliant post, Tikay. Regardless of the intention of the original post I do believe that some poker players are much too quick to scorn amateur players. These people are often successful in their own fields and by no means less intelligent than you. In fact these people often have very good skill sets that mean that they now have an abundance of disposable income. These guys' enjoyment for the game, and, lucky for us, their lack of time to spend studying the game is the reason most of us are where we are.

I'm sure I have definitely been guilty of overcharging mark-up in the past and this is more due to my inexperience with staking and an overestimation of my abilities than an intention to defraud my friends.

[rfgqqabc]

No lol, I dont know the guy at all how could i? I just don't think Tikay can fairly assume the other way, perhaps he can. I'm more curious as to why the phrase random morons has triggered such a response.

Because one of the points I was trying to get across in my OP is that charging high, unjustified mark up is, in my opinion, arrogant, and the referral to people playing the event you're selling for as rando morons and utter noobs is another incarnation of the same problem.

Describing a person you don't know in anyway as arrogant because of their markup which is probably a touch below average for the tournament and almost certainly lower than what Dan could charge is worse than calling someone who exists in theory a random moron.

[nirvana]

I'm sure I have definitely been guilty of overcharging mark-up in the past and this is more due to my inexperience with staking and an overestimation of my abilities than an intention to defraud my friends.


Even worse than doing it knowingly I think

[nirvana]

Makes me laugh a fair bit how faux sensitive and outraged everyone is by a passing reference to morons - the only questions here are really about mark ups and staking - who cares if someone says RM's, recs, fun players, fish - I don't care.

I find loads of staking requests and threads much more offensive than this whole discussion but just cause we take offence doesn't mean we have the moral high ground - just means we're easily offended.

[Marky147]

Makes me laugh a fair bit how faux sensitive and outraged everyone is by a passing reference to morons - the only questions here are really about mark ups and staking - who cares if someone says RM's, recs, fun players, fish - I don't care.

I find loads of staking requests and threads much more offensive than this whole discussion but just cause we take offence doesn't mean we have the moral high ground - just means we're easily offended.

I find it offensive that these threads might get me some stick for selling at spot

[Rexas]

No lol, I dont know the guy at all how could i? I just don't think Tikay can fairly assume the other way, perhaps he can. I'm more curious as to why the phrase random morons has triggered such a response.

Because one of the points I was trying to get across in my OP is that charging high, unjustified mark up is, in my opinion, arrogant, and the referral to people playing the event you're selling for as rando morons and utter noobs is another incarnation of the same problem.

Describing a person you don't know in anyway as arrogant because of their markup which is probably a touch below average for the tournament and almost certainly lower than what Dan could charge is worse than calling someone who exists in theory a random moron.

Fair comment, "in my opinion comes across as arrogant" might seem more appropriate then?

[MANTIS01]

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hard to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

I do kinda agree with your sentiment but would generally take a more placid view. Of course the term moron generates emotions for people in social situations, who likes to be called a moron right? But in this context the 'rando' is being labelled a 'poker moron'...so I don't really care too much about the terminology because it's in the context of poker. Really it's inconsequential how you're perceived at a poker table, all that matters is you know how you're perceived. It's probably even more important to be self-aware and know your ability. However that info is expressed to you...who cares? There is a certain darkness about being all friendly and nice as pie to the poker fish too I think.

Tbh whenever I read these threads about nervous and sensitive new poker player it hacks me right off. People need to grow up and get real if they want to play poker and enjoy it. They're playing the game to win some pots and throw out a few bluffs...not to play pat-a-cake with the grinning friendly pro sitting next door. I daresay Sir Clive Sinclair may not be bothered about blowing a few grand but the rest of us need to shape up and be reactive about being really bad at something. Looking back at when I started playing....winning pots off better players and bluffing the loudmouth was the sweetest thing. That is poker and the enjoyment of the game. Social is a bonus but in reality I wouldn't count on it these days. Loads of intelligent new poker players are not remotely bothered by these opinions because they know the arena they are in, it's a turn on for lots of intelligent people.

Anyway my main point is this notion that the randos are the pros profit. Doesn't work for me in a one comp deal. Can't tell you how many times I've been busted by rando morons Tikay. I haven't got a clue how they think, impossible to play against and lucky as hell. People need to remember everybody has equity in one comp and thinking an 'edge' can be realised in any given comp, especially one over several days, is generally delusional, leading to a sense of entitlement.

My chief concern is the upcoming Vegas trip and whether you're going to donate chips to the rando morons because you feel sorry for them? It will get them interested in poker and help them enjoy the game kinda attitude? Ripping new a-holes applies to randos as well you know! But if you want to do it with a smile on your face then ok.

[Whollyflush]

1.25 in the main, is probably a good deal for backers here for the little I've played with the guy in the Main. This isn't the SCOOP hi roller, its THE best value comp of the year and from what I've seen of Dan i'd assume this is a reasonable investment.

OP out of curiosity have you played the ME? or played with said player? Its a bit brave calling someone out if neither are true.

[Rexas]

1.25 in the main, is probably a good deal for backers here for the little I've played with the guy in the Main. This isn't the SCOOP hi roller, its THE best value comp of the year and from what I've seen of Dan i'd assume this is a reasonable investment.

OP out of curiosity have you played the ME? or played with said player? Its a bit brave calling someone out if neither are true.

No, I'm not specifically calling him out on the mark up itself, the comment of "this is standard for the main" as a justification for the mark up was the main sticking point, followed by the general high pricing people place upon themselves. Dan may well be "worth" 1.25 in the main, but the question is is it fair to take that much EV away from the people who are investing in you?

[nirvana]

There is a certain darkness about being all friendly and nice as pie to the poker fish too I think.

Nearly wrote about this too - it's like one of the worst aspects of poker when it's contrived.

[DungBeetle]

No lol, I dont know the guy at all how could i? I just don't think Tikay can fairly assume the other way, perhaps he can. I'm more curious as to why the phrase random morons has triggered such a response.

Because one of the points I was trying to get across in my OP is that charging high, unjustified mark up is, in my opinion, arrogant, and the referral to people playing the event you're selling for as rando morons and utter noobs is another incarnation of the same problem.

Describing a person you don't know in anyway as arrogant because of their markup which is probably a touch below average for the tournament and almost certainly lower than what Dan could charge is worse than calling someone who exists in theory a random moron.

I find people who post like you to be a complete c*nt.  I'm not referring to you in particular and just people who post like this in theory so this makes it okay.  I'm sure you won't take offence.