It's mark up time of the year again!

[tikay]

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hard to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

[DungBeetle]

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hared to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

Excellent post.

[david3103]

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hared to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

Excellent post.

Yes, it is indeed a very good post.

 I do know Dan, not on a bezzies basis but he and I used to have some fun battles a while ago when I was playing more frequently and the phrase in question, and his subsequent defences of it are, to me, out of character.
The initial attack by Rexas was clearly prompted by Dan's FB posting and was personal for all who recognised him from the comments within that post.
So here's a young man with a love of the game and a growing FB and twitch following now having to find a response that is in tune with the very specific peculiarities of Blonde. Not surprising he missed the mark.

[tikay]

Don't think anyone here knows Danshreddies well enough to pass judgement on his staking offers.


Anyway, as I understand it 80/20 arrangements are pretty much equivalent to a 1.25 mark up but with less risk for the player?

http://blondepoker.com/forum/index.php?topic=64520.0

Well we know that he describes lesser poker players as "rando morons", which is enough for me to make my personal judgement. Hared to believe that players are still saying that sort of stuff in 2016. These "rando morons" are the Pros profit, so to describe them so harshly is more than a little ungracious, not to say self-defeating. Biting the hand that feeds you is probably a bad thing.

I played a good bit of tournament poker back in the day at big buy-ins (£1,000+) with a chap by the name of Sir Clive Sinclair. He might just have been the worst poker player I've ever seen at that level, but he's most certainly not a moron, & I daresay he's a good bit brighter, & more successful in life, than Mr Shreddies. And he KNEW he was bad, really bad, & it did not bother him, he enjoyed the game & was happy to blow a few grand to play a Tourney. The only thing he resented though was when others players insulted him, & his intelligence, by mocking him & his game.

Being a lesser poker player does not make a person a moron.

Excellent post.

Yes, it is indeed a very good post.

 I do know Dan, not on a bezzies basis but he and I used to have some fun battles a while ago when I was playing more frequently and the phrase in question, and his subsequent defences of it are, to me, out of character.
The initial attack by Rexas was clearly prompted by Dan's FB posting and was personal for all who recognised him from the comments within that post.
So here's a young man with a love of the game and a growing FB and twitch following now having to find a response that is in tune with the very specific peculiarities of Blonde. Not surprising he missed the mark.

Maybe so, but I don't use Facebook, so I can't comment on that, & I know nothing of what went off.

I would definitely agree that blonde has some specific peculiarities, but I'd say referring to lesser players as morons is pretty peculiar in this day & age, too. The notion that because we are bad at some particular game or sport makes us a lesser person in any way, shape or form is just wrong.

I wish the fella no ill-will at all, & hope he does well in Vegas. I just think he should be a little more gracious to those who do not play the game as well as he evidently does. The guys he is talking about are his likely source of profit.

[jakally]

If someone was absolutely average against the field (selling at 1)

If someone is average against the field then their average return is <1.

[DungBeetle]

If someone was absolutely average against the field (selling at 1)

If someone is average against the field then their average return is <1.

Fair point - assume you mean rake.  My point still stands though.  There is no charge in poker staking for credit risk.  Maybe its hidden in the markup but I get the feeling sellers don't really consider it as a factor.

[Rexas]

Again, couple of things:

That staking thread of mine, where I sold all of myself at 80/20, is the only time I believe I've sold on this forum at a mark up, and I made it clear that it was because I was stone broke, but wanted to take a shot at a relatively small buy in tournament with a potentially huge return. I explained this in my OP, and answered all the questions people had regarding the stake, in that thread. In my previous staking ventures on blonde, I have even offered free sweats in side events after busting the main that I sold for and have never charged a mark up, so given the clarity of that staking thread and past ventures, I don't think I'm being hypocritical here. Not that anyone said I was, but just wanted to be clear. For clarity, aside from that one thread, I have sold to a private group I used to be a member of on Facebook at a slight mark up before, but never higher than 1.1, and I'm pretty sure I've always made sure to justify why I'm charging a little extra.

With regards to this OP, it wasn't a specific attack on Dan, but to people who had seen his Facebook thread then yes, it was basically calling him out, although there are others this was aimed at too. However, I didn't know/think that he was a member of this forum (he created his account to reply on here, I believe), and my reasons for posting on here were explained in a previous post, but basically I don't feel like it's my right to derail his staking thread when I have no intention of buying, and by posting on here I get to generate a public discussion, but I don't go pissing on his parade on Facebook. If Dan feels like I've gone behind his back or whatever then I apologize, but I do hope he understands why I chose to post on here rather than on his Facebook. I'm happy to post on there and get some discussion going on there if he'd prefer. I also fully expected Dan to see this, and I certainly wasn't trying to hide it from him or anything, this is a public forum after all.

I think the reason this thread has turned a bit sour against Dan is due to the way he has conducted himself since coming on to it. I think everyone was pretty clear on the fact that the OP was partially about him (it was his first post, and he had just created the account after all), but some of the terminology such a the rando moron comment was pretty thoughtless, and for a professional putting himself in the public eye with an increasing Twitch and Facebook following this is completely unacceptable if he genuinely wants to view poker as a means of earning a living. I don't know if it's still a thing to call the "value players" in your games names, or hold that sort of arrogant superiority over them, but it really shouldn't be as it can dissuade a bunch of these people who pay your bloody wages to not want to play anymore. Think about it, if someone who doesn't play much happens across Dan's twitch and finds him laughing about how he played a pot with this guy and he's just a rando moron who's clearly never played before LOL, how do you think he's going to feel? Such a shit habit, and I actually do think I have a right to have a go about this because it actively affects the way people view me as a sort of professional myself. I don't exactly play for a living, I'm a student first and foremost and have worked on and off in that period, but when I do play it is primarily for money, and I have and continue to use that money to help pay my way through university. I have seen, especially with the recent HUD argument and from chatting to people at my local, that the idea of being a "pro" is one that isn't looked at very kindly. Especially the online pros, if you look back at some of the threads on the party poker facebook page and even on here there is definitely a bias against the professional player. Part of this is because they're the people who win, of course, but I also think part of it is down to the stereotypical behavior of the standard "pro". Making a casual slip up in your first post on a forum doesn't exactly fill me with confidence that you aren't making the occasional similar slip up in your twitch stream (which I haven't watched, so I don't know), but if you are, then that is actively affecting the way people view me and every other professional out there and affecting people's decisions as to whether to play or not.

[Doobs]

Hello Dan

I have watched your twitch on the side, and you come off far better on that than you did here.   I don't think I have heard you refer to anyone as a moron, so it was likely just a bad one off slip of the tongue.  I think you are likely a better player than you came across here too, so could probably have explained the mark up here.

Just a bit of feedback for your future twitches, the one I watched was just the first one I found on your twitter and you were playing at the same time as Cat.  You spent much of the time discussing hands that weren't on the screen.  Maybe it was just because Cat was there and you don't normally do this.  I thought you did explain your thinking pretty well in other spots, just that quite a bit of the time I couldn't see the hand/chips etc so couldn't really get the full picture.

The twitch is here for those interested. https://www.twitch.tv/danshreddies/v/65504988. 

Good luck in Vegas and with Twitch.

Doobs 

[rfgqqabc]

Why don't we take words with a pinch of salt and try to look for the actual meaning behind them? Does anybody really doubt Dan meant a bad poker player? Why are we deliberately miscontruing someone because we find his description a bit insulting. Lots of judgement from one minor choice in vocabulary.

I don't really think you should comment on what someone is selling unless it is predatory or misleading. Now both of these are somewhat subjective but 1.25 in the main doesn't really count. I don't really know dans game at all well enough to comment, despite knowing him away from the forum. I'm not sure which of the recreational players surf a poker forum to get insulted about their play, I would hazard a guess as soon as they join the forum they feel like part of the crew and the in crowd. Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no.  But using that phrase instead of recreational player makes you look like a human being instead of some emotionless boring robot their to take people's money. I play with random morons all the time. They probably think I am one too sometimes. Just like everyone is in the top 50% of drivers.

[EvilPie]

Recreational poker players should be entitled to a 'safe space' where they can lose their money without fear of being verbally abused.

Gamblers have feelings too you know.

[Rexas]

Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no. 

I guess this is just a difference in experience, I started out playing in the pubs around where I lived and I definitely know people that confine their play to those pubs because what they've either read/heard has made them feel nervous and inferior. As someone who used to be a total loose cannon and still can be on occasion, I've seen what sort of damage this can do from both sides, and I won't ever stop feeling embarrassed by how I've behaved in the past.

[jakally]

Why don't we take words with a pinch of salt and try to look for the actual meaning behind them? Does anybody really doubt Dan meant a bad poker player? Why are we deliberately miscontruing someone because we find his description a bit insulting. Lots of judgement from one minor choice in vocabulary.

I don't really think you should comment on what someone is selling unless it is predatory or misleading. Now both of these are somewhat subjective but 1.25 in the main doesn't really count. I don't really know dans game at all well enough to comment, despite knowing him away from the forum. I'm not sure which of the recreational players surf a poker forum to get insulted about their play, I would hazard a guess as soon as they join the forum they feel like part of the crew and the in crowd. Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no.  But using that phrase instead of recreational player makes you look like a human being instead of some emotionless boring robot their to take people's money. I play with random morons all the time. They probably think I am one too sometimes. Just like everyone is in the top 50% of drivers.

It's bad, not necessarily because of the specific words you are using, but because of what they mean.
Calling someone a moron or similar is showing contempt. It's saying that I'm superior to you. How is that ever going to be a good thing? Even worse if it's on a public forum.

It's not about being emotionless. You can show emotions without being hostile towards someone.

[Marky147]

We're fun players 

[rfgqqabc]

Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no. 

I guess this is just a difference in experience, I started out playing in the pubs around where I lived and I definitely know people that confine their play to those pubs because what they've either read/heard has made them feel nervous and inferior. As someone who used to be a total loose cannon and still can be on occasion, I've seen what sort of damage this can do from both sides, and I won't ever stop feeling embarrassed by how I've behaved in the past.

I started playing off in a pub league too. It was in a conservative club in Goole. It was full of lots of banter and insults. I can't imagine a single person there complaining at the word moron. Most people there played at the pub because poker was/is a social experience for them. The punters tended to play in a cash game at the end of the tournament and the drunkards just got larruped. I never heard too much outright abuse, but I'm sure words much harsher than moron were used to describe other players and I didn't think it affected anyone's gaming experience.  Moron is just a word for fucks sake. I didn't mean to imply Dan's choice of word is correct, I'm just amazed at the reaction some of it has caused. People have judged his character because of an incidental turn of phrase which describes what he meant to, in an accurate but derogatory way. People are actually getting insulted because Dan called new players in the WSOP main morons. These aren't real people, you don't need to get offended for them. If Dan was ranting in a live tournament or on his twitch stream then I would agree with you. But getting offended for hypothetical people because of it is ridiculous. Tikay judging someones character and intelligence on the back of a few forum posts after he is called out on a forum he is not a regular member of is pretty hostile too. I think he put an excellent point across in a patronizing manner but I imagine like Dan he was a bit annoyed at the time of writing so I won't berate him about daring to insult my friends intelligence over nothing and instead cut him so slack by actually trying to understand what he means.

 Does it surprise me that Dan used a turn of phrase he normally wouldn't after reading this topic? No. Its perfectly understandable. Just like using the term random moron to describe a completely anonymous hypothetical figure in the WSOP Main is fine in my opinion.


fuck shit ***** fuck shit *****

[DungBeetle]

Sometimes you have to describe someone and it is impossible to describe someone as shit at something without rubbing them up the wrong way. Poker has nearly as much ego as sex and driving, we are on a different planet worrying that people are going to get turned off poker because Dan described someone as a random moron. Should you make a habit of it, no. 

I guess this is just a difference in experience, I started out playing in the pubs around where I lived and I definitely know people that confine their play to those pubs because what they've either read/heard has made them feel nervous and inferior. As someone who used to be a total loose cannon and still can be on occasion, I've seen what sort of damage this can do from both sides, and I won't ever stop feeling embarrassed by how I've behaved in the past.

I started playing off in a pub league too. It was in a conservative club in Goole. It was full of lots of banter and insults. I can't imagine a single person there complaining at the word moron. Most people there played at the pub because poker was/is a social experience for them. The punters tended to play in a cash game at the end of the tournament and the drunkards just got larruped. I never heard too much outright abuse, but I'm sure words much harsher than moron were used to describe other players and I didn't think it affected anyone's gaming experience.  Moron is just a word for fucks sake. I didn't mean to imply Dan's choice of word is correct, I'm just amazed at the reaction some of it has caused. People have judged his character because of an incidental turn of phrase which describes what he meant to, in an accurate but derogatory way. People are actually getting insulted because Dan called new players in the WSOP main morons. These aren't real people, you don't need to get offended for them. If Dan was ranting in a live tournament or on his twitch stream then I would agree with you. But getting offended for hypothetical people because of it is ridiculous. Tikay judging someones character and intelligence on the back of a few forum posts after he is called out on a forum he is not a regular member of is pretty hostile too. I think he put an excellent point across in a patronizing manner but I imagine like Dan he was a bit annoyed at the time of writing so I won't berate him about daring to insult my friends intelligence over nothing and instead cut him so slack by actually trying to understand what he means.

 Does it surprise me that Dan used a turn of phrase he normally wouldn't after reading this topic? No. Its perfectly understandable. Just like using the term random moron to describe a completely anonymous hypothetical figure in the WSOP Main is fine in my opinion.


fuck shit ***** fuck shit *****

Are you seriously getting upset because Tikay suggested your friend might not be as intelligent as Clive Sinclair?