It's mark up time of the year again!

[Rexas]

Sorry everyone but this is going to be a little rant about some posts I've seen on Facebook recently that have annoyed me a bit. There has been a few, but two in particular, who are well known members of the poker community and are selling for the WSOP. One was selling for the main at 1.29 and justified it by saying "Pretty standard for the main", even though he's only ever cashed one event above 1k and went on to say that he wouldn't be playing if he didn't sell out. Another was selling a huge package for the same price and didn't even bother offering any justification, and I think it's safe to assume that he would also need to sell out in order to play. At least he's had a few decent scores in bigger buy in live fields, but still.

There's a lot about this that doesn't sit right with me, but what I find truly amazing about it is how they're selling on Facebook, which implies they're selling to friends. So basically, these guys are asking their mates to do them a favor and help them into playing a tournament/schedule that is way above anything they'd normally be able to play. They're then charging their friends a huge amount of juice on that favor, with no justification whatsoever. So, their friends are doing them a favor but hoping that it's going to be a +ev one for them, and presumably invest believing this to be the case, but not realizing that their investment EV is being reduced to as close to zero as the player feels he can get away with. At least if it's being sold on a poker forum it's not actively trying to squeeze money out of your friends, and the investors are more likely to be clued up about how this stuff works, although I still don't think these sorts of mark ups are justified. I mean, at least try and give some sort of reasoned argument for why you think you're worth that sort of price. Just seems super scummy to me, sets a really bad example, and it just seems like people are getting more arrogant about their ability and more greedy with their mark ups every year.

[scotty77]

Agree but would disagree with the last sentence. 4/5 years ago 1.5-1.8 was the standard for the main!

[Rexas]

Agree but would disagree with the last sentence. 4/5 years ago 1.5-1.8 was the standard for the main!

Ouch!

[scotty77]

Agree but would disagree with the last sentence. 4/5 years ago 1.5-1.8 was the standard for the main!

Ouch!

Just go on the staking board and see the old posts

[cambridgealex]

pm me names pls Matt. Might wanna buy

[bergeroo]

I don't think selling on Facebook implies that you are selling to friends, it is just everyone uses Facebook for everything now.

If you think the markup is too high then tell them on their thread and start a debate on their thread. They will probably get peed off but if you can't stand scrutiny on your mark up then you shouldn't sell and advertise with markup imo.

At the end of the day, if all the information is out there and there is no deception and hiding info, then market forces should dictate if they sell out.

[Woodsey]

Just don't buy, I've come to the view that I'm doing people a favour by buying so am less tolerant of mark ups in general.

[POWWWWWWWW]

Call them out for it on Facebook, obv poker forum is different.

[NigDawG]

not sure i agree tbh. if i post something on my facebook then who are you to tell me i cant? if something is priced too high then market forces will come in naturally. i have no idea who any of the people involved are in this example.

[danshreddies]

YO! I think I'm in good stead to speak since I made a similar post on Facebook (though not at 1.29). I have like 4k 'friends' and 80% of them are poker players that have added me, there's a good poker community and the people that bought off me were all poker players. It's also not just your friends you're sharing to, you're getting reshares etc. it's the most efficient way to do anything nowadays. I'd say the Facebook thing isn't too big of a deal. I think non poker players don't get past the lingo and I've never even been approached for action from a non poker player, So i wouldn't be concerned about that. I will always swap before i sell to friends, but if not i will also always buy at the same mark up i sell to them at too. potato potato (hmmm just released it's impossible to use that saying in text...)

Reg mark up. If you've played the main event you'll know it's the softest tournament in the world. sure it has all the wizards, but if you see some of the stuff i saw last year (including my bust out hand last year where someone shoved 16k into 3k, leading to a huge multiway all in with a FD), you'd agree, even good amateurs could justify a MU vs this field. I've bought at mark up, and i would expect to do so. For the most part I'd only buy if i thought It was worth it (unless i was feeling fruity). Perhaps i am doing these players a favor, but if so, helping someone out is fine by me, it's something to feel even better about when they lose my money (which is obv going to happen more often than not).

If anything I, I'm often worried about charging markup. I'm pretty humble about my "ability" and I charge mark up because people advise me to and tell me I am worth it. I usually sell at 1.2, but last year i lost a shit load converting to £ to $ so i moved it up to 1.25 this year (i did explain this in my original post). I also spoke to several respectable people before posting to make sure i wasn't taking the piss with my MU and that it seemed fair. I pretty much got laughed at and reminded of super high markups other people charge. I know 100% there were people selling at 1.6-1.9 last year because i inquired but didn't buy (granted they are top top players but still). I even know of people being freerolled in for 50%. that's way better than 1.29, which would be what, like 78:22? Even though I didn't explain why i added mark up in every super grim and boring detail, people can look at my results and/or have played with me and make their minds up themselves. I was super clear with my MU and didn't try to deceive anyone. I play very few live tournaments, but I have pretty good results in them when I have. I wanted to keep my posts as short as possible, so assumed those wanting to buy would understand how mark up works and be able to make their own minds up about whether they wanted to invest, or punt or whatever way you want to look at it.

The main point is people want a main event sweat. It's a great spot to get behind and that's fun. People also appreciate its expensive to go to Vegas and playing the main also extends my trip by 2 weeks, which comes with expenses and had i not sold enough, i would have played something else while i was there with the money I'm putting into the main. This is something you don't have to worry about when buying a piece. If anything, I'd argue the structure, rando morons and fun factor make the main event a spot for justifiably higher mark up.

I only sold to poker players, many highly respected and very accomplished players, and I almost sold out extremely quickly. It was these kinds of guys who advised me to charge mark up, and that reassures me people think it's worth it. If you have a problem with mark up, don't sell with it and don't buy with it, noone is making you do anything. People bet on sports or roulette or black jack for fun knowing they are making -ev bets so i guess people do place a value on the fun element, and i think that means mark up will remain "standard".

For me, the scummy thing isn't selling at mark up or on Facebook, so long as it's clear (even if it's unjustified in terms of skill level since noone is forced to buy), it's 'ranting' in a forum instead of maturely asking the guys personally, or dropping them a message to politely suggest they justify it on the post (for everyone's benefit). I wouldn't go into Tesco and rant about the price of melons, if i didn't think they were worth it... i wouldn't buy them.

This post doesn't even do anything constructive, it's just a pointless rant and  I'd argue that wining and ranting and spreading needless negativity is way more destructive than a group of players HAPPILY investing and getting behind an individual, having fun, and hoping to make a bit of money in the process.  

[Doobs]

Hey Dan,

Do you often wonder into random people's houses and call them scummy?  Your post seems a lot more negative than the first one to rando morons like me. 

Must be nice to have 4000 friends, sick brag.  No wonder you almost sold out quickly and everything.

Cheers

 

[celtic]

Hey Dan,

Do you often wonder into random people's houses and call them scummy?  Your post seems a lot more negative than the first one to rando morons like me. 

Must be nice to have 4000 friends, sick brag.  No wonder you almost sold out quickly and everything.

Cheers

 

Nirvana hacked doobs acct?

[danshreddies]

Hey Dan,

Do you often wonder into random people's houses and call them scummy?  Your post seems a lot more negative than the first one to rando morons like me.  

Must be nice to have 4000 friends, sick brag.  No wonder you almost sold out quickly and everything.

Cheers

  

Ha! You're taking what i said out of context.... this is the kind of trolly, negativity i was referring to. Passive aggressive posts that have no substance.

 'Rando morons' referred to the total noobs you get playing the main event (And there's lots of them, people who have never played before which make the tourney good value). I wasn't directed at anyone.

You're paraphrasing my use of the term 'scummy', which was a quote from the original poster and I don't believe I called anyone in here Scummy. In fact, i don't think anyone,  OP included, used scummy as a direct insult to anyone personally.

My friends, as i explained are not all 'friends' - no brag present. I was using it to justify Facebook as a suitable resource.


My post was in no way meant to be negative. Perhaps it may be a little defensive, but I was aiming to reply to the original post in a constructive way, trying to make a contextual and intelligent argument to explain mark up (which i feel i did).

Seriously, people need to stop looking for things to attack and just smile more! I think i actually made a valid argument. I could have just written "do i have a 20% roi at the wsop? almost certainly yes. Markup justified", but instead i spent a while explaining things in depth, surely that's a way better way to respond.

[danshreddies]

Hey Dan,

Do you often wonder into random people's houses and call them scummy?  Your post seems a lot more negative than the first one to rando morons like me.  

Must be nice to have 4000 friends, sick brag.  No wonder you almost sold out quickly and everything.

Cheers

  

Ha! You're taking what i said out of context.... this is the kind of trolly, negativity i was referring to. Passive aggressive posts that have no substance.

 'Rando morons' although probably a little non PC, referred to the total noobs you get playing the main event (And there's lots of them, people who have never played before which make the tourney good value). I wasn't directed at anyone personally.

You're paraphrasing my use of the term 'scummy', which was a quote from the original poster and I don't believe I called anyone in here Scummy. In fact, i don't think anyone,  OP included, used scummy as a direct insult to anyone personally.

My friends, as i explained are not all 'friends' - no brag present. I was using it to justify Facebook as a suitable resource.


My post was in no way meant to be negative. Perhaps it may be a little defensive, but I was aiming to reply to the original post in a constructive way, trying to make a contextual and intelligent argument to explain mark up (which i feel i did).

Seriously, people need to stop looking for things to attack and just smile more! I think i actually made a valid argument. I could have just written "do i have a 20% roi at the wsop? almost certainly yes. Markup justified", but instead i spent a while explaining things in depth, surely that's a way better way to respond.

[Doobs]

I didn't see the scummy in the first post.  So apologies for that, but you can't expect your readers to know yor intention when you said it.

I used to be one of the bigger buyers on Blonde, but learned my lesson through the pocket.

I don't believe having a perceived ROI of 20% justifies a 25% mark up.  In my view, the seller should alays leave enough to give the buyer a +EV bet.  So if you are a 20% ROI player, you should probably be selling something much nearer 1.0.  Not only are your buyers taking heaps of variance from the comp each year, there is a whole bunch of risk too.  Every year there are stories of people blowing the buy in in Vegas before the main or just flat out stealing it.   I know nothing much about you, so this isn't a personal thing.  It is just a general risk we take every time we stake someone who isn't a very close friend (and even sometimes when you do).  And just because somebody else is ripping people off a bit more by charging 1.5, doesn't mean it is ok to charge 1.25.  And just because your freinds understand all this, and are all just punting, is it really the case with all these facebook posts? 

I have been to Vegas a few times now, and every year there are people in the corridor looking rough, telling tales of heroic drinking sessions, and laughing about how they have only had a couple of hours sleep.  I have paid mark up on here to witness somebody show up right at the end of late reg, and it is 1.01 he wasn't doing that because his short stack game was brilliant.  I fully accept that you get some bad players in the main, though maybe not so many as you once did.  But you also can find yourself sat next to Steve Sung, as I did on one of my two goes at the main.  If you get to day 2 or 3, you can find some much tougher tables and the genuine bad recs are mostly gone (there really is no need to call your customers morons and I mean ever).  How would you fare with Steve Sung on your left for 8 hours?  Or how are you going to react when you get late where the money is big?  And though you may well be in the top half of players when you start, where are you on day 4 on when the bigger part of the prize money is?  And how badly is your game going to be affected when you are playing for this big money.  I don't believe anyone really does play better as the prize gets bigger, but if you haven't ever played for 6 or 7 figures, it is unclear how much you will freeze or play too passively. 

I am not going to call anybody a scumbag, but most of these mark ups are on the heavy side and I don't think it is a negative thing for the poker community to mention it here. 

Good luck in the main.  Hope you give your investors a payday.