How should live tournaments be raked?

[Mark_Porter]

Tournament rake is seems to be getting more and more muddy by the year. Looking at a few examples:-

Daily Deepstacks during this years WSOP are advertised as $185 buy in. $28.25 of that is an entry fee and $14.75 is for staff. I don't know why there is a distinction between the two? It is actually a $142+ $43 tournament.

In contrast the $10K O8 is advertised as a $10K buyin. Then 4.2% of total prizepool for entry fees and 1.8% for staff. So effectively a $9400+$600 tournament.

The party poker grand prix is a £200+£20 buyin. In addition to that, 3% of all prizepools are retained. This is true of all Partypoker live and grand prix events.

How should tournaments be raked? I guess that taking a % from the prizepool only affects those that cash, is that a good thing?

From a simplicity point of view, wouldn't it be easier if all tournaments were advertised as X+Y. X being the buyin, Y being the rake?

[Mohican]

A % retained from the prize pool is the poker equivalent of a service charge at a restaurant. Don't be surprised if I don't leave a tip after I've finished playing.

[arbboy]

the 3% for staff costs retained is just a joke.  What is the initial 10% for?  Just call it 13% rake and put it all into one pot and stop the bullshit.  Did they retain 3% of the £6m prizepool at dtd in the millions on top of the £360k rake they had already collected when you say all party live events have this?

I have it on good authority that 2017 will be the last season that the GUKPT don't rake prizepools as well and joining in the cash grab that goes on everywhere else.  They have recently put their standard reg fee to £7 as a minimum on any buy in competition at a rec level.  Plus they offer re entries into these competitions charging the same rake again.  The reality is even when they do this they still lose money running these competitions.  £15+£7 is a casual event designed for entertainment purposes only and you could argue that people who play these events for entertainment shouldn't expect to make money playing them anymore than people would expect to make money playing bingo after the bingo club has taken its deductions from the prize pool to cover its costs.

The reality is the vast majority of punters who play poker are not price sensitive in the slightest so whilst the punters keep turning up businesses will keep squeezing the pots until the punters say no.  The goliath at Coventry is £100 + £20 and every year thousands of punters rock up not caring a dot about the 20% rake.  It is the biggest live event every year outside of vegas.  If they made it £100+£30 would many of the customers care?  Probably not given they are happy paying £20 now which is double what they should pay.  They see winning £60k for a ton and think 'awesome'. Even if 20% of the field didn't turn up the casino would still make more in total rake at £30 whilst incurring less dealing costs at the same time.  That is how any profit maxmising business is, and should be, run.  If you don't like it don't play.  Vote with your feet.

regarding the wsop main event.  How many players would actually know 100% for sure how much rake is taken out of their $10k buy in ?  I would guess at way less than 5% of the field including hundreds of pros who should know the cost of doing business but they don't care.  The vast majority couldn't care less otherwise they would find out and know before they played.

[EvilPie]

How should tournaments be raked? I guess that taking a % from the prizepool only affects those that cash, is that a good thing?

Such a clever idea getting people to think like this.

[Mark_Porter]

Did they retain 3% of the £6m prizepool at dtd in the millions on top of the £360k rake they had already collected when you say all party live events have this?

Yes, I believe so.

How should tournaments be raked? I guess that taking a % from the prizepool only affects those that cash, is that a good thing?

Such a clever idea getting people to think like this.

That was the view of some friends when we were chatting about it. I guess, in reality, it is no different to upfront rake.

[arbboy]

Did they retain 3% of the £6m prizepool at dtd in the millions on top of the £360k rake they had already collected when you say all party live events have this?

Yes, I believe so.

How should tournaments be raked? I guess that taking a % from the prizepool only affects those that cash, is that a good thing?

Such a clever idea getting people to think like this.

That was the view of some friends when we were chatting about it. I guess, in reality, it is no different to upfront rake.

It is actually slightly worse % wise than virtually everyone assumes as well.  In the 3% of the prize pool example they are taking 3% from, say, £100k.  This leaves £97k in the prize pool.  So the rake is actually 3/97= 3.1% rather than the 3% 99% of customers think it is.  If the event is 10% rake plus the 3% from the prize pool it is effectively 13.1% rake not 13%.

[EvilPie]

Did they retain 3% of the £6m prizepool at dtd in the millions on top of the £360k rake they had already collected when you say all party live events have this?

Yes, I believe so.

How should tournaments be raked? I guess that taking a % from the prizepool only affects those that cash, is that a good thing?

Such a clever idea getting people to think like this.

That was the view of some friends when we were chatting about it. I guess, in reality, it is no different to upfront rake.

Yep, in reality it makes no difference whatsoever. It's just marketing to make us feel better and think we're not being done over.

Like Arbboy says 'cut the bullshit and just call it 13%'

It's the sneakiness that pisses me off. They say things like 'raking 10% of the prizepool is better for the players than adding 10% rake'. At first glance it sounds good because as you and your friends said it only affects those who cash. In effect it actually increases the rake as a percentage so you're being done over but made to think they're doing you a favour.

Scheming little gits.

[RobS]

Double dipping the prizepools has long been the standard in the US. I wouldn't mind it if the tournament directors/staff still didn't expect tips on top of this.

Disappointing to see the same increase in the rake now being more commonplace on these shores. But as for the operators, if the players still keep turning up why wouldn't you charge them more?

GUKPT Mains started off £1,000+50, then +60, +70, +80, +90, now they are +100. Really hope they don't add the staff deduction as well.

At least at DTD there is always a chance of overlay offsetting the extra charge.

[bergeroo]

Anyone got any Hendon Mob links of tournies 20 years ago where the rake was about 1%? I want to check them out.

I mean if everything is up front then people can make the choice I suppose. The problem is that in general there are only a couple of casino chains in the UK so in reality not that much choice. It is great for poker in the UK that DTD exists. They offer a great product and care about the game, so they push everyone else to try and do better to try and compete.

In Berlin tournies are raked at a flat 10% everywhere with nothing taken out for staff. So even 20+2 freezeouts. In contrast cash game rake is extortionate.

[The Camel]

Anyone got any Hendon Mob links of tournies 20 years ago where the rake was about 1%? I want to check them out.

I mean if everything is up front then people can make the choice I suppose. The problem is that in general there are only a couple of casino chains in the UK so in reality not that much choice. It is great for poker in the UK that DTD exists. They offer a great product and care about the game, so they push everyone else to try and do better to try and compete.

In Berlin tournies are raked at a flat 10% everywhere with nothing taken out for staff. So even 20+2 freezeouts. In contrast cash game rake is extortionate.

When I started playing, rake was 10%, capped at £25.

[FUN4FRASER]

Anyone got any Hendon Mob links of tournies 20 years ago where the rake was about 1%? I want to check them out.

I mean if everything is up front then people can make the choice I suppose. The problem is that in general there are only a couple of casino chains in the UK so in reality not that much choice. It is great for poker in the UK that DTD exists. They offer a great product and care about the game, so they push everyone else to try and do better to try and compete.

In Berlin tournies are raked at a flat 10% everywhere with nothing taken out for staff. So even 20+2 freezeouts. In contrast cash game rake is extortionate.

This

I think its true to say that in The UK some terms can be difficult to understand but  generally everywhere does declare its rules beforehand  ( if you dig deep enough )

However , some of the Vegas rakes are just ridiculous  this for example    "Daily Deepstacks during this years WSOP are advertised as $185 buy in. $28.25 of that is an entry fee and $14.75 is for staff. I don't know why there is a distinction between the two? It is actually a $142+ $43 tournament. "      31% rake effectively

Unfortunately people usually get taken to the cleaners on lower buy in tournaments in the US especially down town at the Golden Nugget etc   because the casinos know the tourists and recs will play regardless

[Marky147]

That's everything for the summer

http://rainbowspuppiessunshine.com/pokercalc/tournaments.php?s_Casino=-All-

[bergeroo]

Anyone got any Hendon Mob links of tournies 20 years ago where the rake was about 1%? I want to check them out.

I mean if everything is up front then people can make the choice I suppose. The problem is that in general there are only a couple of casino chains in the UK so in reality not that much choice. It is great for poker in the UK that DTD exists. They offer a great product and care about the game, so they push everyone else to try and do better to try and compete.

In Berlin tournies are raked at a flat 10% everywhere with nothing taken out for staff. So even 20+2 freezeouts. In contrast cash game rake is extortionate.

For cash games? That's a Berlin/european style of rake today! Cash game rake in the UK is pretty decent I'd say for the most part these days...
When I started playing, rake was 10%, capped at £25.

[brookie]

go back to the way it was 10%

[Royal Flush]

Anyone got any Hendon Mob links of tournies 20 years ago where the rake was about 1%? I want to check them out.

I mean if everything is up front then people can make the choice I suppose. The problem is that in general there are only a couple of casino chains in the UK so in reality not that much choice. It is great for poker in the UK that DTD exists. They offer a great product and care about the game, so they push everyone else to try and do better to try and compete.

In Berlin tournies are raked at a flat 10% everywhere with nothing taken out for staff. So even 20+2 freezeouts. In contrast cash game rake is extortionate.

For cash games? That's a Berlin/european style of rake today! Cash game rake in the UK is pretty decent I'd say for the most part these days...
When I started playing, rake was 10%, capped at £25.

For tournaments, when i started it was a £50 cap.