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Author Topic: Official cryptocurrency thread (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoin)  (Read 302024 times)
EvilPie
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« Reply #165 on: August 14, 2017, 06:41:09 PM »

CLARIFICATION

Sometimes, the "quote" function on blonde does not work properly.

The post made by acegooner at the foot of the previous page was not easy to see, so this is what he wrote;


I defy anyone to come on this thread and give a rational argument for holding cryptos, apart from it being nothing more than a pure punt. With the recent rise in BTC, its market cap is now more than half the FTSE100 constituents. Sorry for me the emperor really has no clothes on.


I get why people would use cryptos, I get the blockchain, I even get the mining bit.  It is rational to use cryptos, so it must be rational to hold them.

All I want to know is why they are worth $4000 dollars each.  The dollar is a very useful bit of kit and is seen as the strongest currency in the World, and is used in huge proportions of the World's trade.  Yet it is worth a dollar. 




Fast forward 50 years in to the future......

I get why people still use dollars, I get the bills, I even get the banks bit. It is still rational to use dollars so it must be rational to still hold them.

All I want to know is how they are still worth 0.000023 BTC each? The bitcoin is a very useful bit of kit and is seen as the strongest transaction medium in the World, and is used in huge proportions of the World's trade.  Yet it is worth a bitcoin.
 
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« Reply #166 on: August 14, 2017, 10:38:39 PM »

CLARIFICATION

Sometimes, the "quote" function on blonde does not work properly.

The post made by acegooner at the foot of the previous page was not easy to see, so this is what he wrote;


I defy anyone to come on this thread and give a rational argument for holding cryptos, apart from it being nothing more than a pure punt. With the recent rise in BTC, its market cap is now more than half the FTSE100 constituents. Sorry for me the emperor really has no clothes on.


I get why people would use cryptos, I get the blockchain, I even get the mining bit.  It is rational to use cryptos, so it must be rational to hold them.

All I want to know is why they are worth $4000 dollars each.  The dollar is a very useful bit of kit and is seen as the strongest currency in the World, and is used in huge proportions of the World's trade.  Yet it is worth a dollar. 




Fast forward 50 years in to the future......

I get why people still use dollars, I get the bills, I even get the banks bit. It is still rational to use dollars so it must be rational to still hold them.

All I want to know is how they are still worth 0.000023 BTC each? The bitcoin is a very useful bit of kit and is seen as the strongest transaction medium in the World, and is used in huge proportions of the World's trade.  Yet it is worth a bitcoin.
 


But, the dollar has no real valuem, it is just a unit of exchange.  Many of the reasons given for the huge value of bitcoins aren't reasons why it should be so valuable.   They just seem to be reasons why it is useful.

What are the reasons why cryptos should be so valuable and what are the reasons it should be worth $4000 (or $200 or $50,000)? 

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« Reply #167 on: August 15, 2017, 12:01:45 AM »



But, the dollar has no real valuem, it is just a unit of exchange.  Many of the reasons given for the huge value of bitcoins aren't reasons why it should be so valuable.   They just seem to be reasons why it is useful.

What are the reasons why cryptos should be so valuable and what are the reasons it should be worth $4000 (or $200 or $50,000)? 



There are going to be a total of 21m bitcoin in circulation, say they are worth $1000 each there will be people who want to equally buy and sell for that price. If someone doesn't own a bitcoin and they want it, they can buy it. If nobody wants to sell at $1000, the price goes up.

I get acegooners stance tbh, he has a background in finance and has a decent knowledge of many things that most won't. Crypto comes along and a lot of people have made a large turnover in a very short amount of time without having a clue what is happening. I think that can be quite infuriating and I would want it to fail and for the foolish people to suffer. I think that's human nature to see a fool that is getting lucky to fail.

I am going to ignore other crypto and talk just about Bitcoin and why it's a great investment for the time being and why it has the possibility to take over non-crypto currency.

Store of value

1. First it was the land you owned and the resources you developed on that land

2. Then it was metals such as gold and silver. Difficult to exchange, difficult to transport if you had a lot of it (ancient greek world problems). Paper currency followed long after this and was backed by gold.

3. Electronic currency. Easily transportable but high transaction fees and zero privacy.

4. Next generation is Cryptocurrency. Easily transportable, little to no transaction fees*, no human intervention between payor and payee, high anonymity and functionality. Money evolves.

*This could be argued that currently with bitcoin transfer fees are high for small transactions.


We live in a world where the current monetary system could probably be explained by less people than could the crypto monetary system. People invest their money in many channels such as shares, savings account, premium bonds, gold, antiques you name it. Anyone who has the privilege of not being in debt and able to save money doesn't have a clue what to do with their money and does not understand what are the best paths to take. I think most people put their money into their savings account which stores their money in a FIAT currency. It's ironic that it's called a savings account since quite obviously your money is diminishing every year but the "amount" goes up slightly.

A lot of people don't understand bitcoin and IMO you don't have to if you don't want to, I would suggest anyone wanting to invest to do so in bitcoin and no other alternative crypto. The majority of people on message boards on reddit and such are mostly looking to make a quick buck and it's carnage in some of those subreddits. They are mostly flooded with 20 year olds who are investing $50 and trying to spin it up. There are also a lot of people who invest decent chunks into alternative crypto without any knowledge whatsoever. If it gives you some kind of satisfaction acegooner, a lot of people have done their nuts this way.

Sorry that I am remembering previous posts and that this is structured but I also remember gooner saying that if you don't get it in an offline wallet that you will be scammed and be stolen from. This is just not true. Cryptocurrency has private keys with most (all) of your coins. When you receive them you can write them down on a piece of paper if you wish which does have it's risk just like paper money does. You could always just make two copies and hide them in separate locations if you wish, or in a vault. You can also have a desktop wallet which is safe unless your computer is compromised, if you take precautions then your wallet is very safe. It's a good idea to not tell people that you have $2m in crypto for this reason because then it might be worth it for a team of 50 hackers to have a bash and hacking you. You can leave it all on an exchange which is also pretty damn safe but probably the riskiest choice. In 2013 or so an exchange one day decided to steal everyones bitcoins. GG.

All we are waiting for is adoption really. Currently some big merchants accept bitcoin online. The Dutch version of just-eat.co.uk has been accepting it since 2013. There are 60 or so ATM's in London (not 20) where you can withdraw or buy bitcoin, the fees are really high though atm at 6% and I can only assume that is because there isn't much demand for it. One of the things I am excited for in the future will be the disgusting costs that the likes of western union charge people. Many immigrants move to countries with better opportunities and regularly send money back to their home to give their family in the poor country a better chance. Currently the only option is to use western union/moneygram since a lot of people in poor countries have no access to banking. These companies charge 20% (and up to 40% to some of the poorest countries). With a complete implementation of bitcoin all these people need access to is a smartphone (which even the poorest of people own or will own in the future) to be able to receive bitcoin, go to a local vendor and trade their bitcoin for their local currency. Since it will be so easy for a person to become a bitcoin vendor by then, rates will become extremely low and competitive.

We live in a world where up until now the economy has it's rules that has been created by the people at the top. The economy and monetary system is obviously a complicated thing but with bitcoin we have set up our own rules that can and will be beneficial in every way compared to the current system.

Finally, I have blabbered here and I probably have some holes in my points. I am not an expert in the economy or bitcoin.
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« Reply #168 on: August 15, 2017, 12:06:18 AM »

CLARIFICATION

Sometimes, the "quote" function on blonde does not work properly.

The post made by acegooner at the foot of the previous page was not easy to see, so this is what he wrote;


I defy anyone to come on this thread and give a rational argument for holding cryptos, apart from it being nothing more than a pure punt. With the recent rise in BTC, its market cap is now more than half the FTSE100 constituents. Sorry for me the emperor really has no clothes on.


I get why people would use cryptos, I get the blockchain, I even get the mining bit.  It is rational to use cryptos, so it must be rational to hold them.

All I want to know is why they are worth $4000 dollars each.  The dollar is a very useful bit of kit and is seen as the strongest currency in the World, and is used in huge proportions of the World's trade.  Yet it is worth a dollar. 




Fast forward 50 years in to the future......

I get why people still use dollars, I get the bills, I even get the banks bit. It is still rational to use dollars so it must be rational to still hold them.

All I want to know is how they are still worth 0.000023 BTC each? The bitcoin is a very useful bit of kit and is seen as the strongest transaction medium in the World, and is used in huge proportions of the World's trade.  Yet it is worth a bitcoin.
 


But, the dollar has no real valuem, it is just a unit of exchange.  Many of the reasons given for the huge value of bitcoins aren't reasons why it should be so valuable.   They just seem to be reasons why it is useful.

What are the reasons why cryptos should be so valuable and what are the reasons it should be worth $4000 (or $200 or $50,000)? 



I think these are valuable questions to answer and it bothers me I'm struggling a bit. I've also had a beer or two, so if anything doesn't make sense, I will try to clarify.

 If i changed bitcoin to gold, would you (or investors) be able to answer it? I can (currently) send thousands of dollars in value across cyberspace, extremely quickly, in a divisible manner. I could send Doobs .1 btc and Tikay 0.01 btc. Bitcoin has a greater value if Woodsey also agrees to accept 0.01 btc for a 10$ debt. If I told you Jade had a value of 100$ per lb in Macau, it seems reasonable to expect you to pay me $95 for a lb of Jade on the mainland, as you have to pay a price to bypass the capital controls. Similar could equally apply to bitcoin and poker players. I know many poker players who traded bitcoin for cash or cash for bitcoin to either dodge or lessen the burden of the US border force.

As an aside this is where bitcoin truly came to fore, and why bitcoin had historically gone down when Darknet Markets had been sezied.(Silkroad 2013/Alphabay 2017) This could also been seen earlier in the year, as Korean and Japanese people were willing to pay a significant premium to enter the bitcoin market. I believe a proportion of that was "tulip mania" but people do value a decentralised way to send thousands of dollars across the internet. Admittedly this is a bit of a house of cards thing, but I believe the same theoretical argument does apply to the $ for example. This would also argue in favour of a parabolic increase in terms of $. It is less useful for me to move hundreds of dollars worth of bitcoin into the EU than it is to move thousands of dollars.

I put this last as I think you need to believe in both the usage of bitcoin and the network effect to get here. When we moved away from the gold standard, we proved that humans can assign value to something without this underlying need for an asset. As a network of humans or markets, we agree that the $ has x price vs the £. And because bitcoin has a limited supply, it has a natural scarity, increasing btc value over time.

Fees are also really low also. It can be hard to understand when you've just used the English banking system but I'll pay approximately 1.5% to send Euros around. Just seen Dan's post and would add WU were the case study that got me excited about crypto.

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« Reply #169 on: August 15, 2017, 12:07:53 AM »

What will the value of bitcoin be on 12/31/17?

$3,001 or more  -150
$2,001 to $3K  +115
$1K to $2K  +660
$1K or less  +1700

prices from @bookmaker_eu

G'wan then, I'll have a punt if it's not too late.

I reckon $7000 is the line for 31/12/17, $20k for 31/12/18


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« Reply #170 on: August 15, 2017, 12:19:43 AM »

I had to talk about alt coins in a separate post despite covering them a little in the previous post. Some coins want to try to do the same thing as bitcoin but with different rules, most of them have failed miserably and some of them are still going strong. I firmly believe that in a very short time only a few coins will own most of the total market cap; one of them will be Bitcoin. I think there will be an alt coin crash soon, people will realise that having more than say 5 coins in the future isn't going to work very well and bitcoin is just going to go on a rampage.

A lot of other cryptos have been designed for other purposes. Despite being called a cryptocurrency they aren't directly a currency. What I mean is, their sole purpose is not to trade tokens for something of a monetary value although that happens eventually. I was about to go into detail on how ethereum works, but I am just not very good at explaining things I don't know enough about. I posted an image about it on page 2 or 3 about how it works though.

Many new coins hit the market this year and given the influx of foolish people looking to make a quick buck, most were blind-sighted by people making huge promises and collecting absolutely outrageous amounts of money without even offering a business address! Madness! Without much of a surprise, a lot of people got scammed like this. A lot of fools got stung. I have invested an extremely small amount (1% of portfolio) in two new ICO's 3 months ago without knowing anything about it just so that I could have a reason to follow them and learn a bit more about them. The ICO scene was definitely a madhouse and most people were just gambling hoping to find the new bitcoin. People love to gamble. Turns out one of the coins has done ok (not lost money) and the other one is just pathetic and hasn't gone anywhere. I'll be investing in some of the new ICO's that will be starting soon with NEO and I'll be spending a heap of my free time there.
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« Reply #171 on: August 15, 2017, 12:36:42 AM »

What will the value of bitcoin be on 12/31/17?

$3,001 or more  -150
$2,001 to $3K  +115
$1K to $2K  +660
$1K or less  +1700

prices from @bookmaker_eu

G'wan then, I'll have a punt if it's not too late.

I reckon $7000 is the line for 31/12/17, $20k for 31/12/18




If this is genuinely what you think then I'm assuming you've got bloody loads of them.

Good luck, enjoy the ride, hope you make the world  thumbs up
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« Reply #172 on: August 15, 2017, 12:44:06 AM »

For proponents, if we take the price of any altcoin out of the equation.

If you had  £100K knocking around (perhaps you do) - would you swap it all for alt coins

£500K, swap it ?
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« Reply #173 on: August 15, 2017, 12:52:58 AM »

What will the value of bitcoin be on 12/31/17?

$3,001 or more  -150
$2,001 to $3K  +115
$1K to $2K  +660
$1K or less  +1700

prices from @bookmaker_eu

G'wan then, I'll have a punt if it's not too late.

I reckon $7000 is the line for 31/12/17, $20k for 31/12/18




If this is genuinely what you think then I'm assuming you've got bloody loads of them.


It's 90% hope and 10% wishful thinking.
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« Reply #174 on: August 15, 2017, 12:53:41 AM »

For proponents, if we take the price of any altcoin out of the equation.

If you had  £100K knocking around (perhaps you do) - would you swap it all for alt coins

£500K, swap it ?

I don't understand what you really mean
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« Reply #175 on: August 15, 2017, 07:12:57 AM »

Another thing I don't get about BTC, in particular, over the last week the US and NK have been throwing barbs at each other posturing for a potential war.

So the stock market sells off and the price of Gold rises, which is pretty self-explanatory. Yet the price of most coins especially BTC rises like nothing is happening! If there is a war in SE Asia, or indeed the wider world BTC should behave in exactly the same way as more conventional stocks.

People talk about BTC becoming a default currency much like the USD. Given the limited amount of BTC in circulation, how are we supposed to pay for our basic staples (sorry to come across as rude but I did LOL at the BTC map of London) if we struggle to get our hands on a currency that is spiralling out of control?  Central Banks have the ability to print more currency, you can't just magic new BTC out of thin air. Traditional currency values do not move by large amounts day to day, even the pound has only fallen just over 10% since the EU referendum which means when we use our currency to pay for things, you don't get a nasty shock.

Think about the consequences of BTC becoming a mainstream currency, if it fell by 50% over say a week, how damaging would that be to the global economy with the price of everyday goods and services going through the roof! We all know how devastating inflation can be to our personal wealth.

There are many unanswered questions in relation to crypto currencies, I just fear for people who are throwing money at them through nothing more than FOMO rather than making rational informed judgements.
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« Reply #176 on: August 15, 2017, 07:30:43 AM »

For proponents, if we take the price of any altcoin out of the equation.

If you had  £100K knocking around (perhaps you do) - would you swap it all for alt coins

£500K, swap it ?

I don't understand what you really mean

It's badly put but simple really. If you had 100k cash in hand, would you swap that 100k for however many bit coins that buys today
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« Reply #177 on: August 15, 2017, 08:45:00 AM »


Warren Buffet has a view on Bitcoin, it seems;

"It's a method of transmitting money. It's a very effective way of transmitting money and you can do it anonymously and all that. A check is a way of transmitting money, too. Are checks worth a whole lot of money just because they can transmit money? Are money orders? You can transmit money by money orders. People do it. I hope bitcoin becomes a better way of doing it, but you can replicate it a bunch of different ways and it will be. The idea that it has some huge intrinsic value is just a joke in my view."


From here;

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/03/14/buffett-blasts-bitcoin-as-mirage-stay-away.html


He also said;


He said he'd advise people to "stay away" from bitcoin because the cryptocurrency is a "mirage" without any intrinsic value, although it's an efficient way to transfer dollars.

From here;

https://www.cnbc.com/2014/03/14/warren-buffett-on-cnbc-berkshire-has-eliminated-most-of-its-us-catastrophe-insurance-business-due-to-low-rates.html




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« Reply #178 on: August 15, 2017, 08:46:35 AM »


In fact, here's the man himself putting forward his view on BitCoin; (this was in March of this year).

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« Reply #179 on: August 15, 2017, 08:52:11 AM »


Warren, on why, in his view, BitCoin is not a currency. He explains this opinion here;


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