Official cryptocurrency thread (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoin)

[Rupert]

https://valueandopportunity.com/2017/09/03/book-review-attack-of-the-50-foot-blockchain/

[acegooner]

Any chance we can change this thread to the deluded investor? The fact BTC market cap is around 7/8% of Apple is enough reason to know it's overvalued. There are lots of quality companies in both the S&P 500 and FTSE100 who are much more of a solid investment that
and do not have the same market cap as BTC.

Most crypto currency speculators usually don't bother looking at stocks and shares, they want the crack cocaine of investments imo.

You must be revelling in the latest slump Acegooner. The world is a changing place, embrace it.

This isn't a slump. If the US/North Korea go to war all risk on assets will fall but cryptos will be smashed off the face of the earth. Is that the change you are talking about?

This is the biggest emperor has no clothes on story for years. How can China banning ICOs cause a 40% fall in ETH because of it being  the platform of choice for ICOs. I love change and technology, but it has to be in real assets that are tangible, understandable and not difficult to value. Think of a number and multiply it by 100 doesn't work for me.

[Rupert]

http://alephblog.com/2017/09/05/where-money-goes-to-die/

[lucky_scrote]

From the article:

To all, I wish you well in investing.  Just remember that new asset classes that have never been through a “failure cycle” tend to produce the greatest amounts of panic when they finally fail.  And, all asset classes eventually go through failure.

This does worry me. Well, I disagree everything is going to go to zero, but I agree that because crypto is new and that there are a lot of newbies and scared money involved that as the swings get bigger and bigger that when there is a big crash there will be ultimate panic. I think we are still in an early enough stage where a lot of people who have bought bitcoin to hold or other cryptos are people who plan to hold for many years, but that there will always be new fresh blood- people that don't do any kind of research on what they are getting into. I went from the learning phase to investing stage in 6 months but I know for a fact quite a lot of newcomers only invest after their mate told them to buy, or when they see people making "mad returns" and want in on it.

There is constant short term panic whenever news comes out, for example china announces they want stricter rules on ICO = 15% drop in market. I wish the market would also grow slower, the growth has been exponential and it creates a lot of volatility in the market.

I really think there is a high chance that bitcoin or whatever the leading crypto will be in years to come will be worth a lot of money, but I can only imagine it's going to be a rough ride. I don't plan on converting my crypto into fiat for a long time so if everything drops 80% tomorrow then in theory I've not lost anything. I've not gained anything yet either. TBH an 80% drop would be a great thing if it were to recover in a couple of years as it might stop all the greediness which feeds the wicked cycle. Well, humans tend to forget hard lessons that these things teach us- 1929, 1987, 2008.

[tikay]

I have no idea if this is fake news, or the real deal.



Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JP Morgan Chase, told a Barclays banking conference in New York that bitcoin “is a fraud. It’s worse than tulip bulbs. It won’t end well. Someone is going to get killed.”

The warning from the regulator came separately as investors counted their losses after I2 Investments, a fund said to be investing in bitcoins, told customers that 95 per cent of their money had been wiped out after its trading strategy went awry at the start of the month.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/bitcoin-is-a-fraud-warns-jamie-dimon/news-story/ca6aa9dc8ee2e63b738b38bb37983e2f

[acegooner]

I have no idea if this is fake news, or the real deal.



Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JP Morgan Chase, told a Barclays banking conference in New York that bitcoin “is a fraud. It’s worse than tulip bulbs. It won’t end well. Someone is going to get killed.”

The warning from the regulator came separately as investors counted their losses after I2 Investments, a fund said to be investing in bitcoins, told customers that 95 per cent of their money had been wiped out after its trading strategy went awry at the start of the month.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/bitcoin-is-a-fraud-warns-jamie-dimon/news-story/ca6aa9dc8ee2e63b738b38bb37983e2f

I saw this reported on Bloomberg and CNBC last night Tikay. Jamie Dimon went as far to say if he caught any of his staff trading Bitcoin he would have them fired.

It's amazing how much denial there is about cryptos at the moment, without labelling, it seems that generally, this is the preserve of younger males that like a punt and have seen the values of these currencies increase so much they want some of the action. There is not necessarily any financial expertise behind their decisions. I do not deny some of them do understand the technology of blockchain and how everything works, but to say that the values of these currencies will continue to increase without abatement is naive, to say the least.

Because I question the validity of BTC/ETH and other currencies online, I have personally been accused of being a hater. I am a capitalist with a capital C, I believe in a laissez-faire economy where spirit and enterprise are rewarded. Yet after analysing cryptos in a lot of detail from a financial planning perspective, incorporating the risk versus reward argument, cannot justify adding anything to my portfolio without a huge correction. Even then with many years studying investments, I couldn't honestly say hand on heart that I would be making a good judgement.

It's such a shame the "rate my shares" thread doesn't attract more interest. There's some cracking companies around right now, even in the tech sector that are ripe for investment. I have just bought some shares in a company called Gfinity. With e-gaming going mainstream they are well placed as an event facilitator/hub. It's almost becoming a sport, with gambling companies such as betway opening books on each event. Very niche, but one to follow.

[titaniumbean]

don't trade cryptos just repackage debt as the worlds biggest scam, knowingly push through as many trades as possible to profit off commission and bonuses and then retire.


Much smarter!

I have no idea if this is fake news, or the real deal.



Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JP Morgan Chase, told a Barclays banking conference in New York that bitcoin “is a fraud. It’s worse than tulip bulbs. It won’t end well. Someone is going to get killed.”

The warning from the regulator came separately as investors counted their losses after I2 Investments, a fund said to be investing in bitcoins, told customers that 95 per cent of their money had been wiped out after its trading strategy went awry at the start of the month.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/bitcoin-is-a-fraud-warns-jamie-dimon/news-story/ca6aa9dc8ee2e63b738b38bb37983e2f

I do not deny some of them do understand the technology of blockchain and how everything works, but to say that the values of these currencies will continue to increase without abatement is naive, to say the least.

it's not like 99% of those involved in tech can spell HTML. That's not stopped anyone ever.


The recent breach of 140million individuals info from equifax (most of whom never even used the companies services) just shows that no one has a literal clue.

My nan at 90 years of age knew to change a password from admin/admin and not click links emailed to her. Those basics were WELL ABOVE this 'reputable company' charged with so much valuable information. How their stock price didn't drop more especially with the CFO/CTO and all these twats selling shares the moment they were informed of the breach but waiting ages to inform the public about the damage to their security is a classic they wont get in trouble lolz disgrace.

[acegooner]

don't trade cryptos just repackage debt as the worlds biggest scam, knowingly push through as many trades as possible to profit off commission and bonuses and then retire.


Much smarter!

I have no idea if this is fake news, or the real deal.



Jamie Dimon, chief executive of JP Morgan Chase, told a Barclays banking conference in New York that bitcoin “is a fraud. It’s worse than tulip bulbs. It won’t end well. Someone is going to get killed.”

The warning from the regulator came separately as investors counted their losses after I2 Investments, a fund said to be investing in bitcoins, told customers that 95 per cent of their money had been wiped out after its trading strategy went awry at the start of the month.



http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/bitcoin-is-a-fraud-warns-jamie-dimon/news-story/ca6aa9dc8ee2e63b738b38bb37983e2f

I do not deny some of them do understand the technology of blockchain and how everything works, but to say that the values of these currencies will continue to increase without abatement is naive, to say the least.

it's not like 99% of those involved in tech can spell HTML. That's not stopped anyone ever.


The recent breach of 140million individuals info from equifax (most of whom never even used the companies services) just shows that no one has a literal clue.

My nan at 90 years of age knew to change a password from admin/admin and not click links emailed to her. Those basics were WELL ABOVE this 'reputable company' charged with so much valuable information. How their stock price didn't drop more especially with the CFO/CTO and all these twats selling shares the moment they were informed of the breach but waiting ages to inform the public about the damage to their security is a classic they wont get in trouble lolz disgrace.

The only problem with selling repackaged debt is now its a lot harder to get away with, given the increased awareness, of what caused the financial crisis. Not to mention the regulation that has been put in place to ensure this doesn't happen again.

Still in 2017, you have the equivalent of the so called "experts" taking to social media ramping up the price of cryptos leaving their affiliate links all over their material so they can have a piece of the action. Perhaps this is the next financial scandal to hit the markets.

[titaniumbean]

yeh for sure but im not listening to these charlatan shits who've just been allowed to get away with fucking everyone repeatedly for personal profits (even if ironically they should know a beautifully profitable scam when they see one).

[rfgqqabc]

Dimon calls it a bubble every few years like the traditional forms of media. Here he is in 2015.
2015
http://fortune.com/2015/11/04/jamie-dimon-virtual-currency-bitcoin/
2013
http://m1.marketwatch.com/articles/BL-MWTELLB-11892?mobile=y%2Cy&tesla=y&tesla=y
2014 link.
https://www.google.hu/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/100000000000001000139100/amp/139100-chase-ceo-bitcoin-terrible-downfall-100
Failed patents
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-15/jpmorgans-bitcoin-alternative-patent-rejected-175-times?page=1

He literally waited until cryptos had some of the worst news this year, with more reports of China clamping down on btc/cny trading as well as a return of funds raised through icos. Probably the best point in btc to go short with an Otc app in China confirming it was indefinitely suspending training.

You really killed this thread ace. Your warnings are appreciated but it's just regurgitated information with little value that shows a complete disconnect from the space. Of course it is mostly young males. Same as most risky endeavours and gambling in general. I would also imagine shareholders are typically male? What's your point. So was online poker? Your warnings would come across as a lot more genuine if it wasn't for the subtle negging in every post. The fact that most of your analysis comes from saying something is up 8x in a year will probably come day is truly enlightening.

It's impossible for you to correctly evaluate cryptocurrency and it bothers me you say you tried. Traditional financial planning wouldn't involve investing in newly developing asset classes like this with such asymmetric returns. Of course if you don't see the need for cryptocurrency it's a bubble.

P.s next support 3600 and after is 2700. Could be a painful week.

[Rupert]

The long term bull case for bitcoin seems to reside on people exchanging it for goods. In order for this to happen it needs to stabilise (vs fiat) to have similar characteristics to a currency. Can you imagine if the USD went up several hundred % in a year?

Right now bitcoins usage are almost exclusively trading the coins themselves and the exchange of illegal goods/services. People will point to the odd retailer here and there adopting it but these are a drop in the ocean as of yet.

Transactions are processed by people mining i.e. using CPU power. These people are rewarded on a diminishing basis - it is literally modelled after the gold rush. It will become less and less economical for people to mine bitcoins and so if volume grows transactions could take a considerable time to process.

I don't doubt that the technology is useful as a security tool, but until a practical application is created (a currency form isn't it - perhaps MA/V would be interested) I won't be investing.

That's my understanding.

[rfgqqabc]

The long term bull case for bitcoin seems to reside on people exchanging it for goods. In order for this to happen it needs to stabilise (vs fiat) to have similar characteristics to a currency. Can you imagine if the USD went up several hundred % in a year?

Right now bitcoins usage are almost exclusively trading the coins themselves and the exchange of illegal goods/services. People will point to the odd retailer here and there adopting it but these are a drop in the ocean as of yet.

Transactions are processed by people mining i.e. using CPU power. These people are rewarded on a diminishing basis - it is literally modelled after the gold rush. It will become less and less economical for people to mine bitcoins and so if volume grows transactions could take a considerable time to process.

I don't doubt that the technology is useful as a security tool, but until a practical application is created (a currency form isn't it - perhaps MA/V would be interested) I won't be investing.

That's my understanding.

If you include circumventing capital controls under the illegal services then I like your post. If it includes only hiring hitmen, its a bit of a media myth. For example, see the difference in bitcoins reaction to the closing of Silk Road in 2013, and the closures of Alphabay and Dream/Hansa this year.


https://www.tradingview.com/chart/BTCUSD/4xVX2cFq-Bitcoin-Collapses-Following-Silk-Road-Shutdown/

Can't find an easy link to DNM shutdowns because it simply didn't affect the price this time. (July saw a 10% increase overall, didn't investigate further) You can even see the more privacy orientated coins such as Monero start an uptrend during this time. I didn't try counter the speculation argument because its hard to disagree with but moving money around with bitcoin is a thing. Lots of poker players received dollars for btc this year in the US.

 

[titaniumbean]

poker players are hardly a normal or indicative market tbf.


much of the 'it's all illegal stuff' is just shitty lazy media rubbish.

[acegooner]

Dimon calls it a bubble every few years like the traditional forms of media. Here he is in 2015.
2015
http://fortune.com/2015/11/04/jamie-dimon-virtual-currency-bitcoin/
2013
http://m1.marketwatch.com/articles/BL-MWTELLB-11892?mobile=y%2Cy&tesla=y&tesla=y
2014 link.
https://www.google.hu/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/100000000000001000139100/amp/139100-chase-ceo-bitcoin-terrible-downfall-100
Failed patents
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-15/jpmorgans-bitcoin-alternative-patent-rejected-175-times?page=1

He literally waited until cryptos had some of the worst news this year, with more reports of China clamping down on btc/cny trading as well as a return of funds raised through icos. Probably the best point in btc to go short with an Otc app in China confirming it was indefinitely suspending training.

You really killed this thread ace. Your warnings are appreciated but it's just regurgitated information with little value that shows a complete disconnect from the space. Of course it is mostly young males. Same as most risky endeavours and gambling in general. I would also imagine shareholders are typically male? What's your point. So was online poker? Your warnings would come across as a lot more genuine if it wasn't for the subtle negging in every post. The fact that most of your analysis comes from saying something is up 8x in a year will probably come day is truly enlightening.

It's impossible for you to correctly evaluate cryptocurrency and it bothers me you say you tried. Traditional financial planning wouldn't involve investing in newly developing asset classes like this with such asymmetric returns. Of course if you don't see the need for cryptocurrency it's a bubble.

P.s next support 3600 and after is 2700. Could be a painful week.

TBH I couldn't give a hoot what Dimon thinks, he is a banker and we all know what that rhymes with. But the fact that a few words from him caused the value of the BTC to fall as it has done over the last 24 hours says a lot.

So Warren Buffet has also dismissed Cryptos, are you going to pull every link you can find about something that he has said to dismiss his point of view as well?

Crypto currencies are not currencies in the traditional sense, they hold no intrinsic value as a medium of exchange. You say it's impossible for me to evaluate cryptos (in terms of who is behind each one and the underlying value that they create), yes you are right but that goes for every other human being on this planet. Anyone who says otherwise is nothing short of deluded.

Are you a chartist by any chance, because where you get a support level of $3,600 is beyond me. Amazing how people don't like hearing what they want to hear. The thread has been killed because there isn't anyone who can come up with a constructive reason for holding cryptos as part of a balanced portfolio, nothing else.

[rfgqqabc]

Dimon calls it a bubble every few years like the traditional forms of media. Here he is in 2015.
2015
http://fortune.com/2015/11/04/jamie-dimon-virtual-currency-bitcoin/
2013
http://m1.marketwatch.com/articles/BL-MWTELLB-11892?mobile=y%2Cy&tesla=y&tesla=y
2014 link.
https://www.google.hu/amp/s/www.rt.com/document/100000000000001000139100/amp/139100-chase-ceo-bitcoin-terrible-downfall-100
Failed patents
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-12-15/jpmorgans-bitcoin-alternative-patent-rejected-175-times?page=1

He literally waited until cryptos had some of the worst news this year, with more reports of China clamping down on btc/cny trading as well as a return of funds raised through icos. Probably the best point in btc to go short with an Otc app in China confirming it was indefinitely suspending training.

You really killed this thread ace. Your warnings are appreciated but it's just regurgitated information with little value that shows a complete disconnect from the space. Of course it is mostly young males. Same as most risky endeavours and gambling in general. I would also imagine shareholders are typically male? What's your point. So was online poker? Your warnings would come across as a lot more genuine if it wasn't for the subtle negging in every post. The fact that most of your analysis comes from saying something is up 8x in a year will probably come day is truly enlightening.

It's impossible for you to correctly evaluate cryptocurrency and it bothers me you say you tried. Traditional financial planning wouldn't involve investing in newly developing asset classes like this with such asymmetric returns. Of course if you don't see the need for cryptocurrency it's a bubble.

P.s next support 3600 and after is 2700. Could be a painful week.

TBH I couldn't give a hoot what Dimon thinks, he is a banker and we all know what that rhymes with. But the fact that a few words from him caused the value of the BTC to fall as it has done over the last 24 hours says a lot.

So Warren Buffet has also dismissed Cryptos, are you going to pull every link you can find about something that he has said to dismiss his point of view as well?

Crypto currencies are not currencies in the traditional sense, they hold no intrinsic value as a medium of exchange. You say it's impossible for me to evaluate cryptos (in terms of who is behind each one and the underlying value that they create), yes you are right but that goes for every other human being on this planet. Anyone who says otherwise is nothing short of deluded.

Are you a chartist by any chance, because where you get a support level of $3,600 is beyond me. Amazing how people don't like hearing what they want to hear. The thread has been killed because there isn't anyone who can come up with a constructive reason for holding cryptos as part of a balanced portfolio, nothing else.

Sorry I must not have made my point effectively.

Here is why bitcoin went down.

https://www.google.hu/search?q=china+bans+bitcoin+2017&oq=china+&aqs=chrome.2.69i59j69i61j69i59l2j69i60l2.3294j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Dimon calls bitcoin a bubble, again, after this news. My point was he is absolutely irrelevant. He possibly had a minor effect on the market at best, but I would be very skeptical. The recent orice contraction has largely come from Western exchanges moving towards the Chinese price, as Chinese markets contracted earlier on the banning news, but Western exchanges held.

You seem to believe every person involved in cryptocurrency is wildly bullish and blindly firing off which is incorrect. Often, people do get excited, and poker players are a prime candidate to be a bit blase with their capital. Overall, your message of caution should be extremely valid in this market, but it comes with such overbearing tones that it becomes ignored or makes the recipient angry and therefore unable to listen. Similar to how my posts are perceived by you. I'm stating to think you didn't  read my post properly, as I stated about China beforehand, and I don't believe you think Dimon is a bigger influence then that.

I do not need to post links to Buffet calling cryptocurrency a bubble because I value his opinion, and I don't think he regularly calls it a bubble. You are giving credit to someone who repeats the same thing every year. Furthermore, as I posted earlier in the thread re; Goldman Sachs reporting on bitcoin, they seem to believe in cryptocurrency, as I believe the attempted JP Morgan patents show they do too.

Not a chartist but I do look at other people charts. It was more of a throwaway comment to show I do expect bitcoin to go down sometimes and because I thought people might be interested. A friend actually told me today he believes the previous resistance around 3000 is more likely to be the support level than either of the two numbers, but its also a matter of time frame.