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Author Topic: Official cryptocurrency thread (Bitcoin, Ethereum, Altcoin)  (Read 302172 times)
lucky_scrote
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« Reply #1125 on: October 05, 2018, 09:03:23 PM »


Bitcoin can’t function properly as a currency because there is a finite number of units and that to a degree stokes it’s volatitlty

Bitcoin is volatile because it is a little fish in a big pond. This fish is like a roach though, it won't die and you won't get rid of the fucking thing. The fact that there are a finite amount of units doesn't make sense, there are 1,730,660,000,000,000 units in circulation. That's 1.7 quadrillion units.

Central banks can increase or decrease money supply to influence the value of a particular currency and/or a particular asset class as we have seen since the financial crisis.

Central banks and decreasing money supply? I will sign up to that one! I will restrain on elaborating into what is wrong with this because I will end up frothing at the mouth and probably induce a stroke or something


My hunch is crypto currencies have a long way to go before the bear market ends, a lot of coins as was the case with tech stocks in the 90s will simply disappear.


Who knows! I think most cryptocurrencies will die and that is just fine. We are in unknown territory as its only been a few years since a lot of this has been discovered. The market will decide what will succeed. Nobody can be sure what will succeed in terms of which coins have the highest market cap, but I feel strongly that a lot of cryptocurrencies will have a function in day to day lives. I can't fathom a world without bitcoin to be honest.
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« Reply #1126 on: October 05, 2018, 09:08:50 PM »


Gold is a legitimate medium of exchange, it’s functionality/practicality in a modern day society is questionable but so is bitcoins. If we were ever to return to the dark ages due to war or natural catastrophe then gold would again be the standard.


I don't think saying you can't buy your staples with bitcoin makes it impractical or nonfunctional. It is a completely new technology that people can't grasp yet.

Why are we talking about dark ages? If the whole world loses power for a year then bitcoin will still exist. As long as someone has a copy of the blockchain and starts processing blocks again, it will be a race to who can create computing power to solve the cryptographic puzzles to mine new coins and process new blocks in the blockchain. It would be a painful process for a few months, but people would just switch to using bitcoin again.
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« Reply #1127 on: October 05, 2018, 09:17:17 PM »

Hey DC, long time no speak, you good? Smiley I live overseas myself now too (South of France running a watersports holiday company, teaching wakeboarding and waterskiing and a few other things).

What's your views on XRP? Personally, I think it's the most likely crypto to go big in the next 3 months. I'm gambling on it being somewhere between $2 and $3 (though higher would be nice) by the year end. I think %-wise, it'll be the most successful crypto by quite a long way between now and year end. It does kinda break the rules of cryptos - way too centralised, way too much control and ownership of XRP by Ripple itself, designed for big business/banks rather than individuals etc., but it has a great use case (for them anyway!), and if they do continue to get on board I think it could go massive.


Hey Matt. Long time indeed. Yes life is treating me well. I was only talking about you yesterday with the missus!

I know very little about ripple. For about 15-20 years many people were trying to solve the riddle to how you could create a digital currency without the need of a third party to deem the transaction being legitimate one or not*. The brightest computer scientists and cryptographers pulling their teeth at trying to solve the puzzle. So when nearly 10 years ago (31st Oct 2008) some person posts a solution to the problem, we have a breakthrough. What completely baffles me is that the one very thing that makes the entire idea of a cryptocurrency being so valuable in society is then spun around and used in the same methods of more traditional FIAT currencies. WTF? I don't understand, and therefore, I just completely avoid ripple. It spells disaster for me. I think people losing money now have learned some hard lessons through scam ico's and investing in just poor projects (I've been there). Ripple is pretty freaking massive and I don't see it failing any time soon since it has such a huge following. I may sound like acegooner here, but a lot of people are going to get hurt and frustrated when something like ripple falls on its arse. People don't learn from history. One thing people will never learn from is being greedy, but for me ripple goes much further with the public. With ripple, a lot of people will be burned because they are ignorant. Almost every fiat currency ends up failing for the same bloody reasons, ripple is just another one of these centralised currencies that will suffer at the hands of centralised attacks and people at the top being too greedy.

*To continue with where this was going without making this more confusing than it already is, the reasons why digital currencies failed before bitcoin is because they all had a central point of attack. Governments and banks just need to fart and they will collapse like a house of cards.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2018, 09:19:02 PM by lucky_scrote » Logged

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« Reply #1128 on: October 05, 2018, 09:48:12 PM »

100,000,000,000 * 589 = 58,900,000,000,000

59 Trillion market cap. Not that marketcap is a great metric in crypto due to the poor liquidity of virtually every coin (even bitcoin is arguably illiquid despite the high trading volumes the slippage on selling 1% of the total supply in a week would be huge) See scams like Dentacoin for this.

"For purists, who believe “money” refers only to physical “narrow money” (bank notes, coins, and money deposited in savings or checking accounts), the total is somewhere around $36.8 trillion. If you’re looking at “broad money,” which isn’t just physical money and includes any money held in easily accessible accounts, the number is about $90.4 trillion."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/this-is-how-much-money-exists-in-the-entire-world-in-one-chart-2015-12-18

589 is such an absurdity.

Ace, I think you are right that BTC makes a poor currency. As the "digital gold" it makes a lot more sense to me but we have to see what happens with layer two solutions before making any strong conclusions. Agree with your other thoughts re markets and central banks but I'm a touch more hopeful time wise. Scary chart below, not sure why it wouldn't embed. Not sure on how we plan on getting out of a financial crises this time.

https://imgur.com/1165ddT


Also would you have any trading book recommendations? I've read a few classics like Stock Market Wizards, Reminisces of a stock operator but always looking for more.


Aaarrrggg - when I become supreme overlord of the world, builders of charts which are either deliberately misleading or incompetent will be the first sent to hell. Both of these will be joining them </rant> 🤬
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« Reply #1129 on: October 05, 2018, 11:02:11 PM »

Gold is tangible and there is a finite amount of it, crypto currency has neither of these properties.


This is just not true and a misconception that really needs clearing up.

Gold is tangible because it's physical. Its properties are that it is hard to forge, it is scarce/finite and is extremely difficult to damage or destroy to its atomic structure.

Bitcoin (not cryptocurrencies) is finite. For this to change there would need to be a huge change to the protocol (by huge, the change is so absurd you may as well just choose a different coin) and for that you need consensus (not happening). I think it is about time people should understand that an asset doesn't have to be in a physical form. Every 10 minutes Bitcoin's blockchain gets one block longer, to do so requires an incredible amount of computing power. Each block in size it increases is a proof of a successful and trustless protocol that can make a transmission of value without a single person deciding if its "good" or not.

Could you explain what the bolded part means in really simple language for me.

I know assets don’t need to be tangible, traditional currencies stopped being physical a long time ago. I also know that QE demonstrated that ‘money’ can be created at the stroke of a pen/tap of a keyboard. That’s why gold becomes more attractive because it is a solid store of value when currency values are eroded by inflation and in times of economic downturn.
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« Reply #1130 on: October 17, 2018, 07:12:29 AM »

Could you explain what the bolded part means in really simple language for me.

Of course! Sorry for not replying, I have been so incredibly busy. It's actually my job to research every in and out of this amazing tech and then write about it, so it's my pleasure. Trying to navigate through a new technology and then having to try to explain something you recently didn't grasp can be tricky however!


A blockchain is a growing list of records with each block containing information. The concept of a blockchain is not new and for a long time wasn't seen to be very useful since until recently people could not reliably trust the information that was in each previous block. Until 2008, the reason a blockchain couldn't be trusted is because it could be easily forged, impossible to verify and was very vulnerable to attacks. With each signing of a block to prove the last block was legitimate required a third party to verify, rendering the whole blockchain worthless since its properties lacked immutability. What is the point of creating something trustworthy if it is easily corruptible?

Almost 10 years ago to this day a solution was found. A protocol was created where multiple parties would have to participate. To lead you towards your question, miners and nodes play a massive role in the maintenance of the Bitcoin network.

Miners Search and assemble of a new block for the blockchain. If successful are rewarded with 12.5btc (halves every 4 years, used to be 50btc). Miners use an extremely large amount of computing power and therefore electricity in order to find a new block (expensive). Finding a new block is done by using maximum computing power which was once done with graphics cards. The action is completed on average every 10 minutes. A new block found is actually just their computing power calculating a unique 'nonce' which is a thoroughly difficult cryptographic puzzle.

Since the puzzle is worth a lot of money these days, people will fight tooth and nail to find it. If you don't use the most powerful computing possible, you are going to be at a loss my friend. Since we know due to game theory that maximum computing power is used at all times, we know that the network cannot be attacked or forged by a higher power as there is not one. The reward for attacking the network and forging blocks is equally useless. It would cost an unfathomable amount of money (if it were even possible) and the reward would be zero, since the trust in the blockchain would be lost. It's like gold at the end of a rainbow.

Miners do more than just search for new unique puzzles to create an empty block. They are responsible for listening to the network at all times that have been verified by nodes as well as listening to new blocks broadcasted by other miners. Their final job is to fish for new transactions and add them to the next potential block. Before the transactions are added to a block they are kept in a memory pool (usually for up to 10-20 minutes, but in extreme cases when the network has been overwhelmed can be longer). The memory pool is located on each node and the miners will pick transactions, starting with the ones with the biggest fee.

Nodes- Effectively network maintenance. All miners are also nodes, but anyone can run a node to help maintain the network. They authorise transactions to see if they are unique and legitimate (this is trustworthy- I don't grasp this well enough to explain it in confidence).

Nodes that don't follow the consensus rules of the network get booted and there are a lot of them around the world.

Once a block is created and added to the chain, the hunt has already begun for the next one. This whole process takes 10 minutes because the difficulty of each puzzle is tinkered with every 2 weeks. Computing power is always increasing so the difficulty is often slightly increased each time.



I do hope that this can at least explain why the concept of cryptocurrency and blockchain work together so well. You hear a lot of muttering saying that blockchain tech is useful but the currency side of it is useless or overvalued, don't listen to that. The technology of blockchain and currency are a huge breakthrough and the proof of work on display gives the data huge amounts of value. If you're curious then fire questions away, if I find time I'll happily answer them.
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« Reply #1131 on: October 24, 2018, 11:01:45 AM »

for discussion

(saw this, not endorsing it)

"Carlo Ponzi went to jail for 14 years for his scam.

Today the biggest Ponzi schemes of all are legal - they're called "Initial Coin Offerings"."

column:

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/floyd-mayweather-dj-khaled-cryptocurrency-scam-bitcoin-ico-ponzi-scheme-centra-tech-a8597416.html
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lucky_scrote
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« Reply #1132 on: October 24, 2018, 04:00:02 PM »

Awful journalism.
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« Reply #1133 on: October 24, 2018, 06:17:31 PM »

I don't think the author understands what a Ponzi scheme is. Fraudulent for sure, and Crypto has seen actual ponzi schemes (bitconnect) but most icos are just terrible ideas. They don't even grant token holders any particular rights so often its hard to even argue its fraud imo.
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« Reply #1134 on: October 24, 2018, 06:24:46 PM »

I don’t think this is actually crypto but saw reference to “new payment network” so seemed relevant. Could well just be a massive ponzi/pyramid scheme too, but only asked for an email rather than my life savings. Can handle giving up my spam hotmail address for the chance of untold riches Smiley

www.initiativeq.com

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« Reply #1135 on: October 24, 2018, 06:29:23 PM »

I don’t think this is actually crypto but saw reference to “new payment network” so seemed relevant. Could well just be a massive ponzi/pyramid scheme too, but only asked for an email rather than my life savings. Can handle giving up my spam hotmail address for the chance of untold riches Smiley

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I saw this too and signed up, 2021 until anything seems likely to happen. Not sure I'm buying it either but freeroll.
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« Reply #1136 on: October 25, 2018, 12:49:06 AM »

Read this and thought might as well click link and sign up, didn't realise it was an invite thing so I think they've sent a verifaction mail to you Jamier, sorry about that!
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« Reply #1137 on: October 25, 2018, 06:16:04 AM »

I don't think the author understands what a Ponzi scheme is. Fraudulent for sure, and Crypto has seen actual ponzi schemes (bitconnect) but most icos are just terrible ideas. They don't even grant token holders any particular rights so often its hard to even argue its fraud imo.

I've found that almost every time a journalist has questioned whether something is a Ponzi scheme the answer is 'no'; I'm starting to think most journalists think a Ponzi scheme is just any kind of fraud.
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« Reply #1138 on: October 25, 2018, 07:14:47 AM »

Could you explain what the bolded part means in really simple language for me.

Of course! Sorry for not replying, I have been so incredibly busy. It's actually my job to research every in and out of this amazing tech and then write about it, so it's my pleasure. Trying to navigate through a new technology and then having to try to explain something you recently didn't grasp can be tricky however!

I understood all of the above. After that there was just the written equivalent of white noise. Maybe i’m just not bright enough to understand.

I will fall back to my original view that cryptocurrency is intrinsically worthless (like a lump of clay before Grayson Perry got his hands on it, a bed before Tracey Emin slept in it, or a wall before Banksy arrived with his stencils and spray cans)  but has a value that is set by the number of people who want to acquire what is a limited,albeit growing, amount of finished work.


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« Reply #1139 on: October 25, 2018, 10:10:17 AM »

Read this and thought might as well click link and sign up, didn't realise it was an invite thing so I think they've sent a verifaction mail to you Jamier, sorry about that!

Ha. It would seem they have attempted to cloak it in mystery to make it sound more attractive! No worries have clicked a button for you - it looks like I get extra worthless points for this effort anyway Wink
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