Changes you would implement to revive the UK

[Doobs]

How does killing people revive the UK?

Should people with an urge to shoot people for some pretty minor crimes get a gun licence?

Not leaving the EU would be a start
A more progressive tax system
Higher taxes on home ownership, inheritances
Lower taxes/higher benefits for those at the bottom.
A new leader for the labour party?
Higher interest rates

[SuuPRlim]

I will give you straight answers mikey.

1. Do I think Peter Sutcliffe should be allowed to live his days?

Yes, yes I do, and the reason for this is not that I believe in a vacuum he does not deserve to die, it's part of a much bigger and much more complicated set of morale and ethical views, and as I'm sure you know as well as anyone given your experiences in life, that often things are not so cut and dry.

If I heard that someone in prison had killed Peter Sutcliffe, I would not be that bothered, and I think you could make a reasonable morale argument that he perhaps deserved it. What I believe though, and I believe this so passionately, is that life and death is not a decision to be made peer-to-peer. I think that life is such a precious, sacred thing and I personally do not trust that a system could ever be impartial and reasonable enough to handle decisions so massive and irreversible such as who lives and who dies.

The argument for "would only use it in cases where it is 100% certain" is not 1 I can accept either, because at the end of the day you are asking PEOPLE to make a decision about someone being executed, and I don't believe that is right. I just can't live in a country where a group of 12 random people aided by a man with a hammer can decide if someone dies. Does it not feel somewhat hypocritical to say - Murder is Wrong then murder them as a response.

You say we're spending ~£20m a year housing life-no-parole serial killers per year, I think we should look at it as we're paying £20m (very small amount in the grand scheme) to protect our society from individuals such as Peter Sutcliffe, and to me that is money spent wisely. Obviously in an ideal world there would be no serial killers and we could spend that £20m on better things, but we are where we are.

I think Mikey, you are treating a very, very complicated topic with some naive simplicity, people who do not support the death penalty are not sympathising with serial killers, nor are people who advocate for it taking a particularly hard stance against them, I don't think killing or not killing Peter Sutcliffe makes a great deal of difference to him at this point, and I certainly do not believe that he would have not committed his crimes were the consequences of being caught been death. I don't think the vast majority of murders are as rationally thought out as that. At the end of the day a world where some people who deserve to die are kept alive with no freedom, rather someone who doesn't deserve to die being killed.

Interesting guy if you never heard of him, Albert Pierrepoint - UK executioner who executed over 400 people, he became an opponent of capital punishment;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pierrepoint#Views_on_capital_punishment

It is said to be a deterrent. I cannot agree. There have been murders since the beginning of time, and we shall go on looking for deterrents until the end of time. If death were a deterrent, I might be expected to know. It is I who have faced them last, young men and girls, working men, grandmothers. I have been amazed to see the courage with which they take that walk into the unknown. It did not deter them then, and it had not deterred them when they committed what they were convicted for. All the men and women whom I have faced at that final moment convince me that in what I have done I have not prevented a single murder.

A lot of people say his claims were just to be controversial to sell his book BTW, but interesting nonetheless.

[Ledders]

Should Peter Sutcliffe have been allowed to spend the rest of his life in prison

Yes.

A question for you, which of these justify your right to kill the offender:

1) 5 guys steal your van
2) 5 guys open the door of your van
3) a child opens the door of your van
4) a guy steals your wheelie bin
5) a child steals your wheelie bin
6) a child steals a flower from your garden

They're simple Yes or No questions

It doesn't look like Mikey is going to answer this question no matter how we phrase it.

I don't think he wanted a debate, I just think he wanted to let us know what would happen if we touch his stuff.

C'mon Mikey, lighten up, I just know I would like you in real life.

He should have made this thread before the bastards nicked his van then they might have thought twice about it

[mikeymike]

Albert Pierrepoint played by Timothy Spall if I remember was he sorry for hanging 400 people – as he said he didn’t sleep badly.

Okay Red Dog – what you’re maybe really asking is what value I put on life and what punishment fits the crime.

On my own life zero – death comes to us all. On others it really depends.

On small children and teenagers and women – I would not carry out any form of violence you will be pleased to know – in fact the opposite – some thirty years ago when I lived in Bethnal Green some young lads stole my car, they didn’t get far as it had no fuel in it and they were unfortunately for them caught by the police – when I went to the police station they informed me that the little tykes were from the travelling family up the road.

The next day I walked onto site and had a word with the main man we had a bit of banter never friendly when there on their own territory – when I informed him I was born and raised in a caravan things lightened up – no trouble afterwards.

If it had kicked off so be it.

If I caught the blokes stealing my van and I know they were adults I would have had no hesitation in taking the biggest one down first and then laying into the rest with as much vigour as a bloke with a partial missing lung could muster aiming to do as much damage as possible – I really liked my van.

It is not the value of the object – they have no right to be on my land full stop.

If I killed the guy so be it – I would face the courts like everybody else and plead my case – but one thing would come out of it – don’t fuck about on my land.

It must me my persona – when I told two of my blokes who use to work for me that I had been diagnosed with cancer and had two weeks to live – they both said thank god – we thought you killed someone.

Life is not complicated it is people that make life complicated – bad things happen and good things happen but not necessarily to the right people.

Now can I get on with playing poker tonight.

[Marky147]

Bet you've been to Elevenerife, Mikey

Good luck with the poker tonight!

[mikeymike]

Some people will have to look that up - some people live a far more interesting life.

[Longines]

[booder]

Bet you've been to Elevenerife, Mikey

 

[booder]

 

[EvilPie]

On small children and teenagers and women – I would not carry out any form of violence you will be pleased to know – in fact the opposite – some thirty years ago when I lived in Bethnal Green some young lads stole my car, they didn’t get far as it had no fuel in it and they were unfortunately for them caught by the police – when I went to the police station they informed me that the little tykes were from the travelling family up the road.

What about the James Bulger killers? Should they have been killed because of what they did?

[mikeymike]

Letting old people die with dignity.

We are currently overrun with old people; they are costing the tax payer a fortune. They get put in care homes and visited once in a while. In general their quality of life is quite poor – if you do the maths care homes and the staff numbers they employ – generally mean that the person been cared for gets less than 20 minutes a day of any form of personal care.

People are over staying there welcome mainly due the influx of drugs they are given which keeps them alive – on average you will die in less than two years when you are placed in a care home.

There surely comes a time when it is kinder to put them down than keep them in a vegetated state.

Would it not also be kinder to let people chose when they want to go –

Now before some liberals start banging on about how outrageous this seems and what a cold hearted bastard I must be – we put my aunt in a care home at 10k a month within three months she was going downhill (95 years old) so we brought her to live with us – one year on and she is thriving and enjoys her life – though it has curtailed ours somewhat.

I have also had this discussion with my own Mum who is 84 and fit and active but as she says – please don’t put me in a care home when I am older I would just rather die with dignity.

[Longines]

fwiw, the plural of ancedote is not data.

[EvilPie]

Letting old people die with dignity.

We are currently overrun with old people; they are costing the tax payer a fortune. They get put in care homes and visited once in a while. In general their quality of life is quite poor – if you do the maths care homes and the staff numbers they employ – generally mean that the person been cared for gets less than 20 minutes a day of any form of personal care.

People are over staying there welcome mainly due the influx of drugs they are given which keeps them alive – on average you will die in less than two years when you are placed in a care home.

There surely comes a time when it is kinder to put them down than keep them in a vegetated state.

Would it not also be kinder to let people chose when they want to go –

Now before some liberals start banging on about how outrageous this seems and what a cold hearted bastard I must be – we put my aunt in a care home at 10k a month within three months she was going downhill (95 years old) so we brought her to live with us – one year on and she is thriving and enjoys her life – though it has curtailed ours somewhat.

I have also had this discussion with my own Mum who is 84 and fit and active but as she says – please don’t put me in a care home when I am older I would just rather die with dignity.

Agree with this but not for the reasons you state.

If the old person, or young person for that matter is capable of making a conscious decision to end their life with no outside interference or influence then I believe it should be their choice.

I don't think we should be making that choice for them because they're getting a bit expensive and we've decided their life isn't really worth living anymore because they don't get many visitors.

[RED-DOG]

Okay Red Dog – what you’re maybe really asking is what value I put on life and what punishment fits the crime.

Sorry to be a pain Mikey, but what I'm really asking is what I really asked, but in case you are unclear I will ask yet again.

You say murder is justified for stealing a van, at what point is it not justified? A bike, a lawnmower, a pair of trousers from the line...?

That's the question. please don't interpret it again, just answer like I answered yours.

Of course you don't have to answer, it's a free country, but in the interest of debate.....


BTW- I would like to hear more about how you came to be born and brought up in a caravan.

[mikeymike]

I am not saying murder is justified for stealing a van - I am saying that murder is justified for stealing my van on my property. If you come onto my property with the intent to steal anything then you risk if you get caught a good is a good kicking if this leads to your demise so be it.

If you break into my house then your in big trouble if I catch you.

I do not condone murder but if you kill someone through protecting your goods or family so be it. Whether its a bit of scrap lead or a car.

There is no need to thieve - you can always make an honest living if you try.

I was raised in a caravan until I was seven travelling the country my family were thespians and put on plays at different venues. I left school at ten and went to work for Showground people who owned arcades on piers - calling out the bingo - fixing machines, that kind stuff. It was good really nice genuine people - then mysteriously the piers caught fire.

People often get confused between Gypsies, travelers and showground people and bunch them together but though there is a link they are different. This has been explained to me by a good mate who comes from the showground fraternity.

Hope this answers your question -