How many Fu**ing times is it going to happen?

[teddybloat]

oh, i am very sincere.

the protests are fractious and based on dangerous ideology.

the idea that races should fear and be pitted against each other is dangerous

the idea that the group you belong to is more important than the person that you are is dangerous.

telling groups that they are victims, oppressed and in danger when they are not is dangerous.

the protests have cost lives, ruined local economies and for what end?

a protest movement asgainst the police i fully support. but the police are not racist. society is not structurally racist and i welcome a discussion. i've posted enough factual claims to be taken to task if i'm wrong.

[teddybloat]

The penultimate paragraph is one of the first things that came to mind, a complex issue that I certainly don’t have all the answers to. My problems would be with systemic racism across all societies. I’d be interested to see the data that that so comprehensively dismisses the police brutality angle in your eyes.

i do not deny police brutality. merely that it is racially motivated.

can you give an example of systemic racism?

in the UK black people do worse than white people, economically. as do pakistanis.

but mixed race people do better than white, as do indians. and chinse do best of all

funny how the systemically racist institutions somehow have the best outcomes for immigrant minority groups. and quite how racists -  famed for theur nunance in all things to do with ethniciites -  are able to delineate between indians and pakistanis whilst enusring the latter do much worse than white people but that the former do much better is anybodys guess

[kukushkin88]

The penultimate paragraph is one of the first things that came to mind, a complex issue that I certainly don’t have all the answers to. My problems would be with systemic racism across all societies. I’d be interested to see the data that that so comprehensively dismisses the police brutality angle in your eyes.

i do not deny police brutality. merely that it is racially motivated.

can you give an example of systemic racism?

in the UK black people do worse than white people, economically. as do pakistanis.

but mixed race people do better than white, as do indians. and chinse do best of all

funny how the systemically racist institutions somehow have the best outcomes for immigrant minority groups. and quite how racists -  famed for theur nunance in all things to do with ethniciites -  are able to delineate between indians and pakistanis whilst enusring the latter do much worse than white people but that the former do much better is anybodys guess

It’s always good when you post👍 and it’s great to challenge consensus views, you’ve persuaded me to recheck a few things. This article covers some of the issues that have led to what I think the consensus view is:

https://news.trust.org/item/20200605102712-km2vc/

[teddybloat]

Being quietly ‘not racist’ is not enough. White people, who are the beneficiaries of this system, must educate themselves as to how and to call it out with the same vehemence as black and minority ethnic people if it is to be dismantled. Silence is complicity.

it's the notion of systems rather than individuals being racist that i push back on -  and the notion that white people do best under it is demonstrably false

i also strongly push back on the notion of group identity being more or as important as individual character - that the individual should bear the sins of the group and vice versa

so we have seen this where black people being blamed for the actions of individual protestors, and the notion of white guilt where white people are deemed to be responsible for the actions taken generations ago or by other white people

it's bullshit and needs calling out as such as we are in a very real situation where race war is not inconceivable in two of the least racist and most affluent countries on earth

[teddybloat]

underlying much of this is a socialist narrative that it is capitalist systems that are suppressing people

note systems are to be dismantled in these narratives and reparations made by the redistribution of-  presumably seized - property and wealth.

there have been many earnest people on twitter trying to claim that racist policing is inherently capitalist. saying that people employed by the state, acting under policies enacted by the state, and working for an agency founded by the state is an example of late stage capitalism is quite the claim. that unionised police forces have more complaints, kill more civillains and have more complaints of racism than non unionised  forces must also be the work of free-market devils.

so, yes, i am very happy to call out this crap for what it is.

[Karabiner]

In other news I'm off to show some support at the BLM peaceful protest on The Forest Recreation Ground in Nottingham.

I'll be more than happy to "take a knee" there.

As long as the police are not disguised as squirrels they should be safe from the hound.

Good stuff, take care, it seems increasingly likely to kick off.

All very peaceful at the Nottingham demo. - approximately 3k-strong with no visible police presence near the crowd who were mostly thronged around the stage periodically applauding the various speakers.

[kukushkin88]

Being quietly ‘not racist’ is not enough. White people, who are the beneficiaries of this system, must educate themselves as to how and to call it out with the same vehemence as black and minority ethnic people if it is to be dismantled. Silence is complicity.

it's the notion of systems rather than individuals being racist that i push back on -  and the notion that white people do best under it is demonstrably false

i also strongly push back on the notion of group identity being more or as important as individual character - that the individual should bear the sins of the group and vice versa

so we have seen this where black people being blamed for the actions of individual protestors, and the notion of white guilt where white people are deemed to be responsible for the actions taken generations ago or by other white people

it's bullshit and needs calling out as such as we are in a very real situation where race war is not inconceivable in two of the least racist and most affluent countries on earth

I struggle with the idea that we’re on the cusp of a race war, when people of all different races would be on the same sides. It’s another thing that would divide first and foremost down the lines of what people felt was right and wrong.

[kukushkin88]

In other news I'm off to show some support at the BLM peaceful protest on The Forest Recreation Ground in Nottingham.

I'll be more than happy to "take a knee" there.

As long as the police are not disguised as squirrels they should be safe from the hound.

Good stuff, take care, it seems increasingly likely to kick off.

All very peaceful at the Nottingham demo. - approximately 3k-strong with no visible police presence near the crowd who were mostly thronged around the stage periodically applauding the various speakers.

Cool👍, sounds good.

[teddybloat]

Being quietly ‘not racist’ is not enough. White people, who are the beneficiaries of this system, must educate themselves as to how and to call it out with the same vehemence as black and minority ethnic people if it is to be dismantled. Silence is complicity.

it's the notion of systems rather than individuals being racist that i push back on -  and the notion that white people do best under it is demonstrably false

i also strongly push back on the notion of group identity being more or as important as individual character - that the individual should bear the sins of the group and vice versa

so we have seen this where black people being blamed for the actions of individual protestors, and the notion of white guilt where white people are deemed to be responsible for the actions taken generations ago or by other white people

it's bullshit and needs calling out as such as we are in a very real situation where race war is not inconceivable in two of the least racist and most affluent countries on earth

I struggle with the idea that we’re on the cusp of a race war, when people of all different races would be on the same sides. It’s another thing that would divide first and foremost down the lines of what people felt was right and wrong.

i do not think we are on the cusp of this. but lets us see how far down the rabbit hole america goes.

when one race is being told they are being oppressed and murdered by another race, and these ideas are being taken seriously i cannot see that leading to a good place -  especially when it based on bullshit theorising and propaganda. and let us see how people in america who do value their white identity above other facets of their life react to the idea of having to give up property and wealth to black people.

people who are peddling this nonsense do so mostly with good intentions, but i do feel it will result in terrible outcomes.

[Karabiner]

In other news I'm off to show some support at the BLM peaceful protest on The Forest Recreation Ground in Nottingham.

I'll be more than happy to "take a knee" there.

As long as the police are not disguised as squirrels they should be safe from the hound.

Good stuff, take care, it seems increasingly likely to kick off.

All very peaceful at the Nottingham demo. - approximately 3k-strong with no visible police presence near the crowd who were mostly thronged around the stage periodically applauding the various speakers.

Cool👍, sounds good.

I bumped into Fran(LittleMissC) and young Freddie on the forest and had a nice chat for ten minutes or so.

I must say she's done a good job with her kids, Freddie is a fine looking fellow - he must be ~5/6yo - and daughter Lily is now eighteen and in her final year at the Nottingham High School where she won a scholarship.

[Doobs]

Being quietly ‘not racist’ is not enough. White people, who are the beneficiaries of this system, must educate themselves as to how and to call it out with the same vehemence as black and minority ethnic people if it is to be dismantled. Silence is complicity.

it's the notion of systems rather than individuals being racist that i push back on -  and the notion that white people do best under it is demonstrably false

i also strongly push back on the notion of group identity being more or as important as individual character - that the individual should bear the sins of the group and vice versa

so we have seen this where black people being blamed for the actions of individual protestors, and the notion of white guilt where white people are deemed to be responsible for the actions taken generations ago or by other white people

it's bullshit and needs calling out as such as we are in a very real situation where race war is not inconceivable in two of the least racist and most affluent countries on earth

I struggle with the idea that we’re on the cusp of a race war, when people of all different races would be on the same sides. It’s another thing that would divide first and foremost down the lines of what people felt was right and wrong.

i do not think we are on the cusp of this. but lets us see how far down the rabbit hole america goes.

when one race is being told they are being oppressed and murdered by another race, and these ideas are being taken seriously i cannot see that leading to a good place -  especially when it based on bullshit theorising and propaganda. and let us see how people in america who do value their white identity above other facets of their life react to the idea of having to give up property and wealth to black people.

people who are peddling this nonsense do so mostly with good intentions, but i do feel it will result in terrible outcomes.

It isn't all bullshit though

Stop and search stats

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and-the-law/policing/stop-and-search/latest#:~:text=there%20were%20375%2C588%20stop%20and%20searches%20in%20England%20and%20Wales,for%20every%201%2C000%20Black%20people.

The multiplier is coming down for black people (you can see it in the historic figures), but this isn't great for black people, even if some of it can be explained by black people been more likley to commit crimes.  And if you have ten times the interactions, then it doesn't matter so much that if you have the same lethal outcomes as white peopleper interactions?

Then you get job applications.  The situation has improved a lot from when I started out where black youg adults just didn't get replies, but still it isn't that great if you have a foreign name.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-46927417

Immigrants do better than natives in a lot of cases.  A lot of it is down to self selection; you have to be motivated to get on your bike vs sitting on the couch moaning about your lot.  Your average immigrant who is a person of colour is a lot more likely to be well educated than a person of colour off the US projects.  So it shouldn't be a surprise if immigrants and their children perform better in education and careers.  They still experience racism, but if you have a better start in life that helps counterbalance that.

Then you get to George Floyd.  Does it matter if he had drugs in his system?  The police should react to what they see and hear.   There seemed zero need to hold him like that for 9 minutes whatever hsi colour, and if he did seem to be intoxicated then there seemed to be even more need to take some better care and pay more attention to his vital signs.

I do think things are clearly getting better, but dismissing these complaints as bullshit doesn't seem to be an accurate reflection of reality.

FWIW Third degree murder is about the same as our manslaughter, which was the original charge.  Kneee man has been upgraded to second degree murder which is something less than we'd see as murder here on my understanding.

[teddybloat]

how much is explained by class?

stop and search woill be proportionally higher in high crime areas. guess who is more likely to live in those areas?

Immigrants do better than natives in a lot of cases.  A lot of it is down to self selection; you have to be motivated to get on your bike vs sitting on the couch moaning about your lot.

exactly this. the disparities are down to culture, not an oppressive system. how else to explain the huge disparity between pakistani and indian outcomes?

with regard to jobs there is explicit room to discriminate in favour of minorities in many cases. over in amerca asian americans have to achieve higher scores than black and white kids to gain entry into universities.

we are not going to see a fair society when we have narratives that hold group identities above individual values.

Does it matter if he had drugs in his system?  The police should react to what they see and hear.

no it does not matter to how he was treated. police absolutely should treat people with dignity and care. and the way mr floyd was treated was despicable.

but what did the officer see and hear? he was told a man was refusing to hand back goods to a store owner and was acting in a drunken and volitile manner. when he got there he saw someone who he actually knew: a 6'6" criminal who had committed the most callous of violent robberies.

the officer treated mr floyd like he was subhuman. but i don't think he did that due to race.

the officer was absolutely vile and operates in a corrupt system that routinely abuses people and protects its own. i said i would back violent protests against policing.

but it's not racist.

races do not have to fear each other.

one race is not supressing another.

[Doobs]

how much is explained by class?

stop and search woill be proportionally higher in high crime areas. guess who is more likely to live in those areas?

Immigrants do better than natives in a lot of cases.  A lot of it is down to self selection; you have to be motivated to get on your bike vs sitting on the couch moaning about your lot.

exactly this. the disparities are down to culture, not an oppressive system. how else to explain the huge disparity between pakistani and indian outcomes?

with regard to jobs there is explicit room to discriminate in favour of minorities in many cases. over in amerca asian americans have to achieve higher scores than black and white kids to gain entry into universities.

we are not going to see a fair society when we have narratives that hold group identities above individual values.

Does it matter if he had drugs in his system?  The police should react to what they see and hear.

no it does not matter to how he was treated. police absolutely should treat people with dignity and care. and the way mr floyd was treated was despicable.

but what did the officer see and hear? he was told a man was refusing to hand back goods to a store owner and was acting in a drunken and volitile manner. when he got there he saw someone who he actually knew: a 6'6" criminal who had committed the most callous of violent robberies.

the officer treated mr floyd like he was subhuman. but i don't think he did that due to race.

the officer was absolutely vile and operates in a corrupt system that routinely abuses people and protects its own. i said i would back violent protests against policing.

but it's not racist.

races do not have to fear each other.

one race is not supressing another.

If you clicked on the link, you would see the stats are broken down by area.  In every area, whether rich or poor, you have a much higher likelihood of been stopped and searched if you are black. 

Some of it is down to poverty, which also explains part of the indian, pakistani discrepency you note.   https://www.business-standard.com/article/current-affairs/why-indian-immigrants-in-uk-are-more-favoured-than-pakistanis-bangladeshis-118050700168_1.html

A lot of these things are due to background; if you came over here to work in a mill, or as a slave, then your descendents have are much less likely to do well than if you came here to work as a doctor or to further your education (as a lot of Chinese do).

It isn't all down to racism, but some of it is. 

[teddybloat]

i do take those points on board.

it's worth noting that when broken down by area, these areas are pretty large. greater manchester is not a homogenous area. there will be huge disparities between areas and even estates. i would be very interested in a breakdown of areas adjusted for crime rates and poverty. saying all of metropolitan london isn't that, imo.

but what structures and laws prevent a black person from doing well?

whatever structures and laws do so do not prevent asian, mixed race and indain kids from doing well.

i would argue that welfare has harmed many communities and that we can argue for changes within the system.

but when the narrative being pushed is that the system is inherently racist, keeps people down and benefits white people to the exclusion of all others, i'm sorry that is palpably wrong. pushing that identity matters more than the individual is wrong.

and much of the protest is anti-capitalism dressed up in critical race theory.

its a dangerous road.

[teddybloat]

at the moment there is a coalition of ex service men and football casuals surrounding the churchill monument to stop it being vandalised whilst protesters chant to tear it down - a statue in bristol ended up in the drink this morning. in plymouth there are white lads standing in front of war memorials. there is a prominent tommy robinson supporter on twitter putting out a call to arms for white lads from brum to get down there to help.

don't tell me that racial fighting is not being bated or is inconceivable

memorials but up for men who died fighting nazis are being desecrated by people who claim to be anti facist yet would argue the soldiers were enablers of a white colonial oppressive system.

this needs to be called out as nonsense, it is going to end very badly if moderates do nothing.