Fancy calling this?

[TightEnd]

- Eydalvur sitting in seat 1 with $457.90 [Dealer]

- Emperor13 sitting in seat 2 with $255.64

- Spiffjuan sitting in seat 3 with $260.00

- TightEnd sitting in seat 4 with $511.40

- helena021 sitting in seat 5 with $504.00

- xoxoxyz sitting in seat 6 with $414.50



Emperor13 posted the small blind - $1.00

Spiffjuan posted the big blind - $2.00



** Dealing card to TightEnd: 

TightEnd raised - $8.00

helena021 called - $8.00

xoxoxyz called - $8.00

Eydalvur folded

Emperor13 folded

Spiffjuan called - $8.00



** Dealing the flop: 

Spiffjuan checked

TightEnd bet - $24.00

helena021 raised - $72.00

xoxoxyz folded

Spiffjuan folded

TightEnd called - $72.00



** Dealing the turn: 

TightEnd checked

helena021 bet - $150.00

TightEnd called - $150.00



** Dealing the river: 

TightEnd checked

helena021 went all-in - $274.00

TightEnd takes a deep breath, wonders why the hell he plays this game, wonders why on earth he's played it this way and

does what?

[TheWhisper]

Tight End calls and helena021 mucks her 

[Nem]

I would fold on the turn. You can't call the river bet.

[totalise]

7/10 given the action, that card wont have changed the situation.. if you were ahead on the turn (which I really dont think you are) you will be ahead on the river.

you gave him a chance on the turn to take a freecard if he had some kinda overcards+fd combo, and he bet anyways.... which is *generally* a sign of strength, as he sees your flop call and figures to have minimal Fold Equity, so then you start thinking, what can I really beat? Wouldn't he control the pot size with 10/10---8/8 ? Why is he willing to play such a big pot against someone who has him matched, sat with 250 BB's

going busto with 250 BB's with a mediocre overpair isn't great.. he either loves or despises his hand, there is a 10% chance of him being on a steaming bluff, but the rest of the time he has you either on the turn to a set/2 pr, or on the river to QK/AK spades.

I'd fold here, but then I would play the turn different. calling the flop gives you a chance to lead rite into him on the turn. if he raises you again, you can be pretty sure he has you, so you get almost clinical info against his range of hands without getting stacked in the process.

[bhoywonder]

tough spot and a fold


did he have a set?

[TightEnd]

but then I would play the turn different. calling the flop gives you a chance to lead rite into him on the turn. if he raises you again, you can be pretty sure he has you, so you get almost clinical info against his range of hands without getting stacked in the process.

thank you, good advice

[JP]

Ok tighty the key decision here is on the turn.
AS has already been mentioned the K is a relative blank. If you decide to call the turn you MUST call the river.
I call the flop, check the turn then decide what is going on in this hand which depending on the player is either call, raise or fold. (May not be much help!!)

I would prob take the check calling line vs your average internet player BUT i'm not very good at NL cash!!!

What he have??? I may play a set like this but the river bet is a bit big so I think he missed! If he puts you on the overpair which appears quite an obvious hand for you to have the K has to be a scare card.

[booder]

for me this is a call............surely if you were up against  q q , k k , a a , ak , aq    you would have been raised pre flop...........im guessing you are up against  8 8  , 9 9 , 10 10  , or a spade flush draw that missed , a 6 or a 8 .............i am crap at cash so i am probably wrong but in a tournament my chips would be in sooooooo fast........possible you are up against k q of spades but i doubt it

[totalise]

JP,

the river bet isn't huge at all

Look at the pot growth from street to street:

a) preflop: $34
b) flop $34+$96+96 =$226
c) turn $226+150+150 = $$536

d) river he bets $274.. 40% of pot. He cant really bet anything else, IF tighty is calling $150 (which he did on turn) he is calling the full amount 100% of the time. The river bet size isn't going to be an indicative factor as to whether he hit or missed

I do agree with you that if you are calling the turn, you probably should call the river... although you shouldn't be calling the turn in this spot unless you have a strong reason to think you have him strangled (ie he is a perpetual bluffer, and you are happy to let him bluff the rest of his stack off)


booder,

This is a cash game and they are 250 BB's deep. You will find hands like AQ/AK getting called here rather then raised re-raising quite often... as they cant stand a re-raise, but they want to see a flop with it.

You also discount QQ--AA, which is fair, but if this is the case, what exactly does he have! 250 BB is a real deep game, and he is willingly tangling with someone who can decimate his stack. How confident can you be to assume that he has 88--1010? If you think he raises with AA--QQ and smooth calls 10/10 and below, 40% of the smaller pairs have made a set. Bayes theorum "should" tell us that as the hand is progressing, its *less* likely that he has a mere underpair, and *more* likely that he has a set.


In a tournament, you will find yourself with 250BB's about once in a year i think (WPT Championship) typically on the internet you are lucky to start with 75bb's, and as the blinds levels escalate, you are in constant urgency to accumulate more. This is why peoples hand standards go down. They are forced to play. When you are real deep in cash games, there isn't such an urgency so typically in big pots, you aren't going to find a mediocre unimproved big pair winning very often.

It is eminently possible that the villain was bluffing.. but again.. look at it from his perspective. He either has to put Tightly on a big pair or AK/KQ spades by the time the hand has got to the river, so that river card has to have scared him to the point where he cant expect to have a lot of FE... so unless he does have the AK/QK spades combo, he is going to put the breaks on very quick (and if he does have it, we re beat anyways). IF he doesn't have it, he is still willing to put the rest of his stack in the middle.. ask yourself why is this? he either is on a desperate bluff, or he is happy to take on Tightys hand even now..

In my past, I spent a real long time at the 1/2 level on the way upwards, and you are going to see a stone cold bluff here about 10% of the time (if that) and the other 90% of the time its a made hand, of which Mr Tight cant beat any.. the EV of a 10% succes rate doesn't add-up.

Maybe tighty called and won the pot, but that doesn't change the fact that playing pots of this size (500 BB's!!) with those many blinds, with a mediocre hand like JJ, is losing poker (unless you have a fantastic read on your villain, which unless tighty forgot to include, he doesn't have)

[Nem]

JP,

the river bet isn't huge at all

Look at the pot growth from street to street:

a) preflop: $34
b) flop $34+$96+96 =$226
c) turn $226+150+150 = $$536

d) river he bets $274.. 40% of pot. He cant really bet anything else, IF tighty is calling $150 (which he did on turn) he is calling the full amount 100% of the time. The river bet size isn't going to be an indicative factor as to whether he hit or missed

I do agree with you that if you are calling the turn, you probably should call the river... although you shouldn't be calling the turn in this spot unless you have a strong reason to think you have him strangled (ie he is a perpetual bluffer, and you are happy to let him bluff the rest of his stack off)


booder,

This is a cash game and they are 250 BB's deep. You will find hands like AQ/AK getting called here rather then raised re-raising quite often... as they cant stand a re-raise, but they want to see a flop with it.

You also discount QQ--AA, which is fair, but if this is the case, what exactly does he have! 250 BB is a real deep game, and he is willingly tangling with someone who can decimate his stack. How confident can you be to assume that he has 88--1010? If you think he raises with AA--QQ and smooth calls 10/10 and below, 40% of the smaller pairs have made a set. Bayes theorum "should" tell us that as the hand is progressing, its *less* likely that he has a mere underpair, and *more* likely that he has a set.


In a tournament, you will find yourself with 250BB's about once in a year i think (WPT Championship) typically on the internet you are lucky to start with 75bb's, and as the blinds levels escalate, you are in constant urgency to accumulate more. This is why peoples hand standards go down. They are forced to play. When you are real deep in cash games, there isn't such an urgency so typically in big pots, you aren't going to find a mediocre unimproved big pair winning very often.

It is eminently possible that the villain was bluffing.. but again.. look at it from his perspective. He either has to put Tightly on a big pair or AK/KQ spades by the time the hand has got to the river, so that river card has to have scared him to the point where he cant expect to have a lot of FE... so unless he does have the AK/QK spades combo, he is going to put the breaks on very quick (and if he does have it, we re beat anyways). IF he doesn't have it, he is still willing to put the rest of his stack in the middle.. ask yourself why is this? he either is on a desperate bluff, or he is happy to take on Tightys hand even now..

In my past, I spent a real long time at the 1/2 level on the way upwards, and you are going to see a stone cold bluff here about 10% of the time (if that) and the other 90% of the time its a made hand, of which Mr Tight cant beat any.. the EV of a 10% succes rate doesn't add-up.

Maybe tighty called and won the pot, but that doesn't change the fact that playing pots of this size (500 BB's!!) with those many blinds, with a mediocre hand like JJ, is losing poker (unless you have a fantastic read on your villain, which unless tighty forgot to include, he doesn't have)

A great post.

[Royal Flush]

JP,

the river bet isn't huge at all

Look at the pot growth from street to street:

a) preflop: $34
b) flop $34+$96+96 =$226
c) turn $226+150+150 = $$536

d) river he bets $274.. 40% of pot. He cant really bet anything else, IF tighty is calling $150 (which he did on turn) he is calling the full amount 100% of the time. The river bet size isn't going to be an indicative factor as to whether he hit or missed

I do agree with you that if you are calling the turn, you probably should call the river... although you shouldn't be calling the turn in this spot unless you have a strong reason to think you have him strangled (ie he is a perpetual bluffer, and you are happy to let him bluff the rest of his stack off)


booder,

This is a cash game and they are 250 BB's deep. You will find hands like AQ/AK getting called here rather then raised re-raising quite often... as they cant stand a re-raise, but they want to see a flop with it.

You also discount QQ--AA, which is fair, but if this is the case, what exactly does he have! 250 BB is a real deep game, and he is willingly tangling with someone who can decimate his stack. How confident can you be to assume that he has 88--1010? If you think he raises with AA--QQ and smooth calls 10/10 and below, 40% of the smaller pairs have made a set. Bayes theorum "should" tell us that as the hand is progressing, its *less* likely that he has a mere underpair, and *more* likely that he has a set.


In a tournament, you will find yourself with 250BB's about once in a year i think (WPT Championship) typically on the internet you are lucky to start with 75bb's, and as the blinds levels escalate, you are in constant urgency to accumulate more. This is why peoples hand standards go down. They are forced to play. When you are real deep in cash games, there isn't such an urgency so typically in big pots, you aren't going to find a mediocre unimproved big pair winning very often.

It is eminently possible that the villain was bluffing.. but again.. look at it from his perspective. He either has to put Tightly on a big pair or AK/KQ spades by the time the hand has got to the river, so that river card has to have scared him to the point where he cant expect to have a lot of FE... so unless he does have the AK/QK spades combo, he is going to put the breaks on very quick (and if he does have it, we re beat anyways). IF he doesn't have it, he is still willing to put the rest of his stack in the middle.. ask yourself why is this? he either is on a desperate bluff, or he is happy to take on Tightys hand even now..

In my past, I spent a real long time at the 1/2 level on the way upwards, and you are going to see a stone cold bluff here about 10% of the time (if that) and the other 90% of the time its a made hand, of which Mr Tight cant beat any.. the EV of a 10% succes rate doesn't add-up.

Maybe tighty called and won the pot, but that doesn't change the fact that playing pots of this size (500 BB's!!) with those many blinds, with a mediocre hand like JJ, is losing poker (unless you have a fantastic read on your villain, which unless tighty forgot to include, he doesn't have)

 

[ifm]

Great post, i look forward to your replies on this board, very enlightening stuff.
12bar blues was good too, where did he go?

[TightEnd]

totalise, than you very much for your fantastic insights. Much appreciated. JP...you thought like I thought!

Once I check-call the turn I am going to go for it from there on

I did, to be honest, think from the speed (very quick) and size of the river bet that it was designed to scare me and did not represent a value bet with a set. From that perspective my read was correct---although as totalise says the thinking wasn't necessarily correct.

I called. I had no prior read on the player.


 
TightEnd checked
 
helena021 went all-in - $274.00
 
TightEnd called - $274.00
 
helena021 shows: 
 
TightEnd shows: 
 
TightEnd wins $1022.00 from the main pot
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[totalise]

very nice.

I certainly agree that calling the turn almost obligates you to call the river.. .I just have issues behind getting to the river absent proper justification. At the least, it gives people food for thought, which is certainly the primary purpose of forums such as this.

Glad it worked out for ya.

[12barblues]

12bar blues.......... where did he go?

Still here.....you don't get rid of me that easily 

Oh, and I would have folded on the turn as well.  Why is it that I want to fold every winning hand and go busto with every losing hand on this board?