AA, terrible flop

[totalise]

so you are leading out for 3/4 the pot or less?

you don't like the check raise, I don't either


check calling tells you nothing but at least gets you to see a cheapish turn, is that what you are advocating?

no idea. I wouldn't want to advocate anything here, because every option seems wrong. I felt like whatever I did was gonna end up being a mistake, and its supremely rare that I ever feel as though I dont know what to do, hence the post.

Anyways, I checked, UTG bet $120 (into a pot of $340, I didn't know what to make of this) button folded, and I called.. and the turn was the Ace of clubs.

a) what to do now?


I was sorely tempted to just fold on the flop, but decided that getting to the turn so cheap is a blessing and a curse, and decided to get frisky.


b) one thing I thought of immediately afterwards was an alternate line whereby I could potentially get a 3-bet in on the flop as cheap as possible.. by betting some maggot amount like $50. This solicits a raise quite often, but it also gives me more Fold Equity on a 3-bet because people are going to be raising a bet of $50 a LOT more often then if I bet $300. Thoughts? I kinda liked this line as soon as i thought of it, but haven't thought it through too well

[TightEnd]

a) I think his flop bet after you, the reraiser, checked post flop...indicates serious strength IMO...could be completely wrong though.

Betting that amount is almost begging a raise

That said you then go and hit your trips...I really think you need to define your hand here...is he drawing, has he a made hand, which just as equally could be JJJ/QQQ/KKK as much as a flush..?

I bet the pot......play it strong...you have check called on the flop and then bet out on the turn, this is going to worry a lot of his hands


b) You are advocating a "limit" type approach...the problem is I don't think a lot of his hands fold to the 3 bet so you actually have minimal fold equity...you bet $50, he pops it up and you re-pop.....don't think on that board anyone really pops it up with nothing

all you have done is build a big pot in a dangerous situation

As it is, I would pump it on the turn, give him something to worry about, unless he's sitting there with the straight flush of course!

[Nem]

No flush possible, only a possible straight.

edit: Sorry.

[TightEnd]

the flop is 


pretty much most things are possible on that board with a raiser and a reraiser

[JP]

I check the flop and call the $120 the key to this hand now is keeping the pot small.
On the turn I am going to check it again and see what the bettor does.

[Nem]

If the board pairs on the river, do you check raise on the river or bet out?

[TightEnd]

If the board pairs on the river, do you check raise on the river or bet out?

a) JPs right, as usual!

b) On a non spade pairing river, the check raise is cute...check as if you missed the flush

[Royal Flush]

b) one thing I thought of immediately afterwards was an alternate line whereby I could potentially get a 3-bet in on the flop as cheap as possible.. by betting some maggot amount like $50. This solicits a raise quite often, but it also gives me more Fold Equity on a 3-bet because people are going to be raising a bet of $50 a LOT more often then if I bet $300. Thoughts? I kinda liked this line as soon as i thought of it, but haven't thought it through too well

Yeah i would have bet $10! It's amazing how many times that gets you a cheap card!

On the turn i am check calling.

[totalise]

I check the flop and call the $120 the key to this hand now is keeping the pot small.
On the turn I am going to check it again and see what the bettor does.

yup, this is what I decided to do. i checked, and he bet 450. This immediately got me suspicious.

This didn't feel like a "nut" hand at all. Of course, its posible, but experience tells me this line he took is a non-nut hand.. ie 2 pr/set/baby flush/straight. I almost eradicated the nut flush draw from his hand unless he had A10, as I tend to see naked As check behind here, and his bet didn't seem like he had the made A flush, so I decided to call the turn, and bomb the pot if the board paired or a spade came.

The river was a tiny spade, he thought forever, and folded, claiming a flopped small flush, and i escaped

Anyways, the more I think about the hand, the more I think that leading is the correct play... if not for any other reason then building a balanced strategy. If I flop a monster hand, I want to be able to bet the damn hand and get action, and thus i have to lead with "dodgy" hands as well

Also, if you are leading with good or bad hands, it means when people want to try and steal the pot from you, they have to pay quite a lot to do it because the lead builds the pot, and they are working on a rally flimsy information base, so you are giving them a chance to make a big mistake, and in NL the root of our profit isn't always how well we play, its how bad the other peple play.

Moral of the story? get nicer flops

ty for all the posts

[Table Manners]

This is the best thread I've read in the hand analysis room in ages. Very techical:-  Great stuff.