"Honesty doesn't pay in poker"

[NoflopsHomer]

I always wait if there is a disconnection online. Doesn't everyone, seriously?

I always wait for a few minutes or so.

[bolt pp]

I'll get me coat then.

 

not if i get it first, which peg is it on? is it leather?

[Dingdell]

I always wait if there is a disconnection online. Doesn't everyone, seriously?

I never used to - as far as I was concerned it was free money and I had seen it so many times before that I thought it was the norm.

Then I read Reds post and since then he has sat on my shoulder - bloody heavy! In a three handed game I was encouraged by the other player still connected to raise the disconnected players blinds - i coudn't sit out because he would have just taken both of us down so I slow played for as long as the clock would allow to give the guy as much time to get back.

You know that the majority will raise the blinds and take the money - we've seen it here on a blonde tourney - and there wasn't much of a stink about it if I remember.

In live poker if a player steps away from the table he looses his hand - disconnection is slightly different admittedly - however that doesn't seem to matter to most. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Robert HM]

discos? I need to win somehow. However I went through a stage of giving chips back to an oppo if he got back, on purpose that is.

Seeing cards in a live game, I couldn't cheat if I wanted to, I can't bluff normally anyway and I would not feel right about it at all.

[totalise]

I always wait if there is a disconnection online. Doesn't everyone, seriously?

I'd like to say yes, but the harsh reality is that I rarely do... if my disconnection went down and I was blinding away, it would be very unlikely that my opponents would wait for me, and so I dont feel bad about it when they are d/c'ed.

The only exception would be if I was playing against someone who either I knew, or I knew to be an honest person, then I would wait, because I know they would wait for me

Thats only in SNG's/MTT's though... if Im in a cash game and get dc'ed and that stupid all=in protection is used and I subsequently win the hand (assuming I would have folded if I didn't get disconnected) then I would send them the money back the majority of the time

[RED-DOG]

I agree that honesty is the best policy. I was accused of seeing another players cards - I wasn't in the hand and neither was the accuser - and I hadn't seen the cards - I would have had to be a contortionist to achieve that and I would have told the player that i could see his cards and that he should be more careful.  But at least the accuser was promoting honest play.

Red is the most honest player I know - who else on an on line tourney - when the other player disconnects will sit out and wait for them to come back into the game?  I know I have raised every blind when that happens.

Is there a difference between on line and live play honesty? Do people have different levels of honesty depending on whether they are on line or playing live?

Don't get me wrong, Im no angel, I've spent my life wheeling and dealing with guys that would lift your leg so high you could bite your own kneecap, and if I could pull a stroke on one of them I would, it was expected by both parties. (Buyer Beware)

Likewise, if I went into a restaurant and they charged outrageous prices but forgot to add the drinks, I wouldn't tell them.

But if I found someones wallet, I would return it in an instant, and if I give someone my word, I would never break it.

I know a lot of people who are governed by, shall we say, a different set of rules, but they have good morals and integrity, I would trust them implicitly

People hide dishonesty, cruety, racism, etc, because they have learned to, but that doesn't alter the real person inside.

You ask two people if they had ever commited a crime of any kind, one says yes, and the other says no, which one would you believe, and and therefore deem the most honest?

Being fair, and abiding by the rules in sports and games is, for me, more important than winning. It's a test of myself. If I cheat, even if I'm the only person who knows about it, the whole thing  becomes a mockery

I think this poem says it better than I can

 
 
 
THE MAN IN THE MIRROR


If you get what you want in your struggle for self

And the world makes you king for a day,

Just go to a mirror and look at yourself

And see what THAT man has to say.


For it isn’t your father or mother or wife

Who judgement upon you must pass,

The fellow whose verdict counts most in your life

Is the one staring back from the glass.


He's the fellow to please, never mind all the rest

For he's with you clear upto the end,

And you've passed your most dangerous difficult test

If the man in the glass is your friend.


You may fool the whole world down the pathway of years

And get pats on the back as you pass,

But your final reward will be heartache and tears

If you've cheated the man in the glass!
 

[tikay]

Great great, stuff.

Honesty, all day & all night, in every situation. There's no other way. And I can cope with being in the minority.

[bolt pp]

great post red-dog.

It got me thinking about why people are honest; benevolent; philanthrapic.

is it ultimatly to appease ones own sense of morality.

your post predominantly, accentuates the way in which you would feel about gaining an unfair advantage and how you'd reconcile that with yourself.

But what about an understanding for ones opponent.

exerting the requisit restraint from duplicitous tactics because you would honestly feel bad for the recipiant.

I think the same argument can be made for the precipitive reasons for charitible donations and voluntary work.

I think that there are three main reasons for acts of modern day kindness and veracity:

1)A genuine understanding and empathy for the recipiants plight.(the most credulous i feel)

2)exestential tendency to asuage ones own guilt sorounding ones success.

3)To try and fit in with everyone else with no real regard for the cause to which you have donated.

the point i'm trying to make is that are people moral, honest, reverent for the right reasons?

how many people wouldnt cheat uniquely through fear of being caught.

there was a post from claw i think regarding tipping ettiqute.

this for me was a simple one though the answers were as vast as they were diverese.
firstly i would ask myself, for what reason am i tipping and what would it mean to the recipiant?
the rest is easy.

I wouldnt cheat as i'm sure no blondite would.

as for thre reason for not doing so, theirin lies the ultimate insight into ones character

[RED-DOG]

Now that's a great post!

Btw, you must have read that dictionary well before the dog ate it!

[bundle]

Very interesting topic,
 Honest poker players. Hmmmm  Johnny Chan slug in a 5k chip and claimed it was an accident “thought it was 500” and tries to pull it back TD says the bet stands and his opponent reads him as weak and calls, with Chan holding the nuts, honest or dishonest ?

Sammy Farha  flashes his AA at his opponent to get a read, is warned for doing so and told he will get a penalty next time he does it, honest mistake or dishonest ?   

So who in fact are we talking about when we say old school

I was watching a big name online cash player last year Zweg I think his name is, he was playing for a WSOP seat got it HU and his opponent disconnects and he cripples him raising every hand. The railbirds were tearing into him about it. He said something like. “I came here to win a seat, Not my problem he left, its not like second doesn’t pay well”

Are you telling me you would wait for the disconnected player to return?

All very interesting stuff.

[turny]

red some off the things you say are fantastic.just look at the sentence below and really read into it and think.



You ask two people if they had ever commited a crime of any kind, one says yes, and the other says no, which one would you believe, and and therefore deem the most honest?


makes u think?
well it did me  

[RobS]

In reply to the original post, I would always declare a card I had seen and have it a as burn card / misdeal.

This reminds me of playing a live game in Manchester last year. One bloke at the opposite end of the table to me held his cards in his hand at all times, and checked by lifting this hand up and down (he'd probably seen Bad Girl Pham holding her cards like this on TV). However, he hadn't mastered this technique,  each time he checked he clearly exposed his bottom hole card to all at my end of the table. After he had done this twice I politely pointed out to him what he was doing, and I was then berated by the players on either side of me who said I should have let him carry on doing this. I disagree completely but I guess this is the attitude you'd expect in Manchester!!

However, with regards to disconnections online, I have a different viewpoint. I will happily take someone's chips who is disconnected. Why? Because any time I disconnect nobody is going to wait for me. And yes in this case I believe two wrongs do make a right as in the long term others disconnections and your own disconnections should even out. If you always wait for peope to reconnect then they aren't going to remember you and return the favour at a later date when you disconnect.

[Raindogs]

Playing live last week I was involved in a hand where I held 56 and my opponent 76.  Two sixes came on the flop and all the money went in.  Turn was a Q.  There was some talk that it would be a split pot.  The river was a 3 (I think as I was getting my rebuy out at this point).  The dealer was splitting up the money at this point and my opponent (an experienced live player) said nothing.  I did not really look at the board while this was happening, as I assumed I had escaped, until the player next to me started to point at the cards as if he was about to say something.  I then noticed that it was not a split pot, but by that time the dealer had split the pot and my opponent was saying nothing.  The player who was about to point this out said nothing and to my shame neither did I.  It was during the rebuy and it would have cost me £20 as I would have lost all my chips. 

Should I have spoken up ?

[Dingdell]

Playing live last week I was involved in a hand where I held 56 and my opponent 76.  Two sixes came on the flop and all the money went in.  Turn was a Q.  There was some talk that it would be a split pot.  The river was a 3 (I think as I was getting my rebuy out at this point).  The dealer was splitting up the money at this point and my opponent (an experienced live player) said nothing.  I did not really look at the board while this was happening, as I assumed I had escaped, until the player next to me started to point at the cards as if he was about to say something.  I then noticed that it was not a split pot, but by that time the dealer had split the pot and my opponent was saying nothing.  The player who was about to point this out said nothing and to my shame neither did I.  It was during the rebuy and it would have cost me £20 as I would have lost all my chips. 

Should I have spoken up ?

I would have had to, yes.

A similar thing happened to me at The Vic last year -  until the river it had been a split pot but I won with the last card. The dealer started to divide the chips, no one said a word, I asked to the table in general why he was doing this. No one answered. I asked again no reply. Evenyually I pointed out to the dealer I had won (I was doubting myself because of the dealers actions) and he passed me all the chips.

My opponent - who I meet often at the tables - didnt say a word and admitted that he knew but "if the dealer doesnt see it who am I to correct him?"  Since then I have always thought less of him - has no affect on him I'm sure but I do believe in this karma thing a bit and if he runs his life like that totally I am certain it will come back and bite him on the bum eventually.

Funnily enough I have recently been working with a clinical psychologist and we were talking about shame - people are often not ashamed of things unless they think they may be found out. For example littering at 1 in the morning is easier for some people than during the day because they are less likely to be seen. This is probably the same with on line poker - raising a disconnected players blinds from behind your computer is less shameful than cheating at live tables.

It all goes in degrees to - if it was for a wsop seat I'd be more likely to do it...

[matt674]

my view made on another thread a while back about online disconnections...

If my opponent is too stingy to be bothered to get broadband to replace his dial-up or is using some tinpot broadband company that reroutes its signals via Guatamala, Outer Mongolia and Kilmarnock - three of the worlds most out of the way places then it isnt my problem. I'll take the chips every time.

About the turning over of exposed cards then if i definately saw a burn card exposed or a card as it was being dealt then yes i would mention it - so long as i was 100% certain of what the card was. We had a gentleman at a game at the circus last week who 3 times said he saw a card exposed as they were being dealt and when the card was turned over he was wrong on all 3 occassions. To me this was just as bad as now everyone had extra information as to one of the cards that would definately not be appearing on the flop.

If i was sat next to someone who was revealing their cards when they were looking at them then i probably wouldnt say anything at the table - if that person cant keep their hole cards out of the view of the general public then that isnt my problem. However if they are doing it on a regular basis without realizing then i would probably have a word with them during one of the breaks.

A little pet hate of mine is people who show their cards to their neighbour as they are passing them, their neighbour has passed - they look down to see yet another "bag of spanners" pick them up, show them to their neighbour and say something like "see - told you he keeps giving me this rubbish" as they are being mucked. I always complain but it normally continues and no-one gets punished for it.