The UK Politics and EU Referendum thread - merged

[RickBFA]

https://mobile.twitter.com/margarethodge/status/1026527925531758593

I’m away and catching up on news.

Just seen Labour Party have backed down over Margaret Hodge.

Generally avoid Twitter but just read the above link. There are some seriously screwed up and aggressive supporters of Corbyn. They are a total disgrace. Hodge getting some unacceptable stick on there.

Their loyalty is like the most extreme religious brainwashing cults.

God help us if we ever get a country run by that clown.

[Pokerpops]

Liam Fox: No deal most likely Brexit outcome for UK

60-40

down to EU intransigence, of course.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45073294

Intransigence for sure. Seems maybot is in a position where she would take away any kind of deal that beats no deal. I really doubt she's driving a hard bargain right now. By contrast it appears EU is knowingly entering a scenario where millions of real people suffer because they wont make a concession on their conjured up concept of union. Seems like classic intransigence, like an intransigence definition bullseye. I think a period of no deal will have a sobering effect on both parties and a deal will be done eventually so no need for us to all fear no deal means the end of days.

You voted leave so "the scenario where millions of real people suffer" is your choice.  Instead of feeling the least bit guilty, you look to blame everyone but yourself.  Absolutely archetypal brexiter.  When Trump f-cks up in the USA (which he will) your co-twats in that country will be doing the same.

Pretty ridiculous to think that anyone who voted Brexit has a scintilla of a reason to feel guilty. Pretty legitimate to look around and find many targets for the creation of the environment that led to the leave vote and also to find many politicians, of all hues, culpable for the divisive and dishonest crapfest since.

You want a list of people who should feel guilty? Well it certainly shouldn’t include anyone who exercised their democratic right to vote in a referendum.
If you believe that the future of this country is only secure if entangled with the EU then maybe it’s all those folk who didn’t choose to make a choice.
Or it’s some or all of this lot

Major
Blair
Cameron
Gove
May
Barnier
Junckerrs

[MintTrav]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

[nirvana]

I've been thinking. If I could buy cigarettes and wine at the prices in Germany and get the same redundancy and job security as a French worker I'd vote to rejoin

[MANTIS01]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

The markets right across Europe have been on the slide, lack of confidence, serious fall in German manufacturing orders illustrates some of the potential negative effects on EU states. It isn't the case that only UK will feel discomfort. Makes the situation organic moving forward, gives us bargaining chips. In fact the, cough, intransigence of EU leadership is actually right in the process of taking away employment.

I don't think we really need EU management of our consumer protections, we are quite capable of working it out. This is actually one of the advantages of Brexit. I feel more regional politics is a good idea so Chipping Sodbury taking it's lead from Brussels is an unagreeable notion. Anyway, in a free market this is kinda self-regulating as customers generally buy goods & services from companies they trust.

[MintTrav]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

The markets right across Europe have been on the slide, lack of confidence, serious fall in German manufacturing orders illustrates some of the potential negative effects on EU states. It isn't the case that only UK will feel discomfort. Makes the situation organic moving forward, gives us bargaining chips. In fact the, cough, intransigence of EU leadership is actually right in the process of taking away employment.

I don't think we really need EU management of our consumer protections, we are quite capable of working it out. This is actually one of the advantages of Brexit. I feel more regional politics is a good idea so Chipping Sodbury taking it's lead from Brussels is an unagreeable notion. Anyway, in a free market this is kinda self-regulating as customers generally buy goods & services from companies they trust.

We’ve already had the ‘Europe will also be damaged by Brexit’ discussion. Parts of Europe will be affected a bit and we will be affected many times more. There’s no need to have it again.

We may be capable of doing so but, before we joined the EU, we didn’t introduce consumer/employment/environment protection and we won’t do it after we leave unless the EU forces us to. If anything, there are dark forces longing to ‘cut back on red tape’. Any time any new protection is proposed, scaremongers say it will cost too much money, cost jobs, put too much strain on employers, etc - all the usual old crap to avoid doing it. One of the reasons the EU is so much better than individual governments at this kind of thing is because of the power held by appointed officials rather than elected politicians. Pressure from vested interests and fear of electoral backlash prevent politicians from following their conscience whereas those not subject to elections can focus on doing the right thing without having to take popularity contests into account.

As for the free market self-regulating without legal requirement - come on, get serious. Unless children start dropping from being poisoned, the unregulated free market is terrible at protecting consumers, and you can forget altogether about protecting employees and the environment.

[Pokerpops]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

The markets right across Europe have been on the slide, lack of confidence, serious fall in German manufacturing orders illustrates some of the potential negative effects on EU states. It isn't the case that only UK will feel discomfort. Makes the situation organic moving forward, gives us bargaining chips. In fact the, cough, intransigence of EU leadership is actually right in the process of taking away employment.

I don't think we really need EU management of our consumer protections, we are quite capable of working it out. This is actually one of the advantages of Brexit. I feel more regional politics is a good idea so Chipping Sodbury taking it's lead from Brussels is an unagreeable notion. Anyway, in a free market this is kinda self-regulating as customers generally buy goods & services from companies they trust.

We’ve already had the ‘Europe will also be damaged by Brexit’ discussion. Parts of Europe will be affected a bit and we will be affected many times more. There’s no need to have it again.

We may be capable of doing so but, before we joined the EU, we didn’t introduce consumer/employment/environment protection and we won’t do it after we leave unless the EU forces us to. If anything, there are dark forces longing to ‘cut back on red tape’. Any time any new protection is proposed, scaremongers say it will cost too much money, cost jobs, put too much strain on employers, etc - all the usual old crap to avoid doing it. One of the reasons the EU is so much better than individual governments at this kind of thing is because of the power held by appointed officials rather than elected politicians. Pressure from vested interests and fear of electoral backlash prevent politicians from following their conscience whereas those not subject to elections can focus on doing the right thing without having to take popularity contests into account.

As for the free market self-regulating without legal requirement - come on, get serious. Unless children start dropping from being poisoned, the unregulated free market is terrible at protecting consumers, and you can forget altogether about protecting employees and the environment.

We joined the Common Market / EEC in 1973 and were coerced into the EU in 1993.

There were numerous consumer and employment protection laws before that and as the timeline in this article demonstrates, these have developed with our own development into a more equal society. For instance, we abolished slavery without the need for any help from unelected officials in Brussels. We also managed to legislate against racism, for employment contracts and to give a right to redundancy payments.
https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/history-employment-law-0

The argument that the power f unelected officials is a strength of the EU is clearly nonsense, but just in case you really believe it maybe you should consider this
According to the EU’s figures there are 371 Senior Managers controlling the 32,000 staff. Making decisions for 508,000,000 people and answerable to none of them.

[Doobs]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

The markets right across Europe have been on the slide, lack of confidence, serious fall in German manufacturing orders illustrates some of the potential negative effects on EU states. It isn't the case that only UK will feel discomfort. Makes the situation organic moving forward, gives us bargaining chips. In fact the, cough, intransigence of EU leadership is actually right in the process of taking away employment.

I don't think we really need EU management of our consumer protections, we are quite capable of working it out. This is actually one of the advantages of Brexit. I feel more regional politics is a good idea so Chipping Sodbury taking it's lead from Brussels is an unagreeable notion. Anyway, in a free market this is kinda self-regulating as customers generally buy goods & services from companies they trust.

We’ve already had the ‘Europe will also be damaged by Brexit’ discussion. Parts of Europe will be affected a bit and we will be affected many times more. There’s no need to have it again.

We may be capable of doing so but, before we joined the EU, we didn’t introduce consumer/employment/environment protection and we won’t do it after we leave unless the EU forces us to. If anything, there are dark forces longing to ‘cut back on red tape’. Any time any new protection is proposed, scaremongers say it will cost too much money, cost jobs, put too much strain on employers, etc - all the usual old crap to avoid doing it. One of the reasons the EU is so much better than individual governments at this kind of thing is because of the power held by appointed officials rather than elected politicians. Pressure from vested interests and fear of electoral backlash prevent politicians from following their conscience whereas those not subject to elections can focus on doing the right thing without having to take popularity contests into account.

As for the free market self-regulating without legal requirement - come on, get serious. Unless children start dropping from being poisoned, the unregulated free market is terrible at protecting consumers, and you can forget altogether about protecting employees and the environment.

We joined the Common Market / EEC in 1973 and were coerced into the EU in 1993.

There were numerous consumer and employment protection laws before that and as the timeline in this article demonstrates, these have developed with our own development into a more equal society. For instance, we abolished slavery without the need for any help from unelected officials in Brussels. We also managed to legislate against racism, for employment contracts and to give a right to redundancy payments.
https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/history-employment-law-0

The argument that the power f unelected officials is a strength of the EU is clearly nonsense, but just in case you really believe it maybe you should consider this
According to the EU’s figures there are 371 Senior Managers controlling the 32,000 staff. Making decisions for 508,000,000 people and answerable to none of them.

Surely the truth is somewhere imbetween?  We will still have protections, but they are likely to be less strong than in the EU and likely to swing about a bit depending on the Governmemt.   I can't see them disappearing quickly, as much of the Government's energy will be devoted to fire fighting over the next year or two.   

I don't think the negative UK holds up every bit of progress either.  I am not sure why we are singled out, or why everything the UK opposes is viewed as progress.  Some things we oppose are bound to be terrible ideas.

[MANTIS01]

Lol@ “we’ve already had the Europe will be damaged by Brexit discussion. No need to have it again”

Pretty sure we’ve had the “uk will be damaged by Brexit discussion”. But Leave find new and inventive ways to raise that topic each and every day.

[Pokerpops]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

The markets right across Europe have been on the slide, lack of confidence, serious fall in German manufacturing orders illustrates some of the potential negative effects on EU states. It isn't the case that only UK will feel discomfort. Makes the situation organic moving forward, gives us bargaining chips. In fact the, cough, intransigence of EU leadership is actually right in the process of taking away employment.

I don't think we really need EU management of our consumer protections, we are quite capable of working it out. This is actually one of the advantages of Brexit. I feel more regional politics is a good idea so Chipping Sodbury taking it's lead from Brussels is an unagreeable notion. Anyway, in a free market this is kinda self-regulating as customers generally buy goods & services from companies they trust.

We’ve already had the ‘Europe will also be damaged by Brexit’ discussion. Parts of Europe will be affected a bit and we will be affected many times more. There’s no need to have it again.

We may be capable of doing so but, before we joined the EU, we didn’t introduce consumer/employment/environment protection and we won’t do it after we leave unless the EU forces us to. If anything, there are dark forces longing to ‘cut back on red tape’. Any time any new protection is proposed, scaremongers say it will cost too much money, cost jobs, put too much strain on employers, etc - all the usual old crap to avoid doing it. One of the reasons the EU is so much better than individual governments at this kind of thing is because of the power held by appointed officials rather than elected politicians. Pressure from vested interests and fear of electoral backlash prevent politicians from following their conscience whereas those not subject to elections can focus on doing the right thing without having to take popularity contests into account.

As for the free market self-regulating without legal requirement - come on, get serious. Unless children start dropping from being poisoned, the unregulated free market is terrible at protecting consumers, and you can forget altogether about protecting employees and the environment.

We joined the Common Market / EEC in 1973 and were coerced into the EU in 1993.

There were numerous consumer and employment protection laws before that and as the timeline in this article demonstrates, these have developed with our own development into a more equal society. For instance, we abolished slavery without the need for any help from unelected officials in Brussels. We also managed to legislate against racism, for employment contracts and to give a right to redundancy payments.
https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/history-employment-law-0

The argument that the power f unelected officials is a strength of the EU is clearly nonsense, but just in case you really believe it maybe you should consider this
According to the EU’s figures there are 371 Senior Managers controlling the 32,000 staff. Making decisions for 508,000,000 people and answerable to none of them.

Surely the truth is somewhere imbetween?  We will still have protections, but they are likely to be less strong than in the EU and likely to swing about a bit depending on the Governmemt.   I can't see them disappearing quickly, as much of the Government's energy will be devoted to fire fighting over the next year or two.   

I don't think the negative UK holds up every bit of progress either.  I am not sure why we are singled out, or why everything the UK opposes is viewed as progress.  Some things we oppose are bound to be terrible ideas.

Careful there, that looks like a balanced response

My issue with the EU version of ‘protection’ is that it is inevitably a reflection of a situation that is not the same as that which obtains in the UK. EU legislation has to be designed to meet the needs of all of the member states. Those needs are both political and economic and unlikely to suit both the UK and Greece to take but one example.

Sorry, we appear to be rerunning the referendum debate here and that’s a waste of everyone’s effort. Perhaps we should move on to the debate about whether a niqab makes people likely to push letters into your face?**



** or, more sensibly, whether BJ is being treated fairly for what was, after all, a piece that defended the right of people to wear such apparel.

[nirvana]

Speaking as someone who has virtually no political knowledge but has spent a lifetime doing deals, I can guarantee there is zero chance of a no deal brexit. All the 'no deal' preparations and discussions are nothing more than a very transparent negotiating tool.

Never mind "No deal is better than a bad deal". No deal would be the worst deal of all and there is no way we can allow it to happen.

But, the simple truth is, we have no bargaining chips. We will be forced to accept the softest of brexits where we obey EU laws, continue with free trade - free movement, pay our dues but have no seat at the decision making table.

Just catching up. This seems to be where we are heading. If we are to lose the advantages of belonging to the EU, this seems like the ideal next best scenario. There are right-wingers who would like to see “efficiency savings” forced through that are a cover for taking away our employment, consumer and environmental protections. The EU currently protects us from these charlatans, and will continue to do so if we have to comply with their regulations.

In some ways it could actually be better, as the EU can press ahead with further protections without the negative UK always holding up every bit of progress and, as we have to fall in line, we will also benefit despite ourselves.

The markets right across Europe have been on the slide, lack of confidence, serious fall in German manufacturing orders illustrates some of the potential negative effects on EU states. It isn't the case that only UK will feel discomfort. Makes the situation organic moving forward, gives us bargaining chips. In fact the, cough, intransigence of EU leadership is actually right in the process of taking away employment.

I don't think we really need EU management of our consumer protections, we are quite capable of working it out. This is actually one of the advantages of Brexit. I feel more regional politics is a good idea so Chipping Sodbury taking it's lead from Brussels is an unagreeable notion. Anyway, in a free market this is kinda self-regulating as customers generally buy goods & services from companies they trust.

We’ve already had the ‘Europe will also be damaged by Brexit’ discussion. Parts of Europe will be affected a bit and we will be affected many times more. There’s no need to have it again.

We may be capable of doing so but, before we joined the EU, we didn’t introduce consumer/employment/environment protection and we won’t do it after we leave unless the EU forces us to. If anything, there are dark forces longing to ‘cut back on red tape’. Any time any new protection is proposed, scaremongers say it will cost too much money, cost jobs, put too much strain on employers, etc - all the usual old crap to avoid doing it. One of the reasons the EU is so much better than individual governments at this kind of thing is because of the power held by appointed officials rather than elected politicians. Pressure from vested interests and fear of electoral backlash prevent politicians from following their conscience whereas those not subject to elections can focus on doing the right thing without having to take popularity contests into account.

As for the free market self-regulating without legal requirement - come on, get serious. Unless children start dropping from being poisoned, the unregulated free market is terrible at protecting consumers, and you can forget altogether about protecting employees and the environment.

We joined the Common Market / EEC in 1973 and were coerced into the EU in 1993.

There were numerous consumer and employment protection laws before that and as the timeline in this article demonstrates, these have developed with our own development into a more equal society. For instance, we abolished slavery without the need for any help from unelected officials in Brussels. We also managed to legislate against racism, for employment contracts and to give a right to redundancy payments.
https://www.morton-fraser.com/knowledge-hub/history-employment-law-0

The argument that the power f unelected officials is a strength of the EU is clearly nonsense, but just in case you really believe it maybe you should consider this
According to the EU’s figures there are 371 Senior Managers controlling the 32,000 staff. Making decisions for 508,000,000 people and answerable to none of them.

Surely the truth is somewhere imbetween?  We will still have protections, but they are likely to be less strong than in the EU and likely to swing about a bit depending on the Governmemt.   I can't see them disappearing quickly, as much of the Government's energy will be devoted to fire fighting over the next year or two.  

I don't think the negative UK holds up every bit of progress either.  I am not sure why we are singled out, or why everything the UK opposes is viewed as progress.  Some things we oppose are bound to be terrible ideas.

Yes, of course.

We had a decent amount of employment protection in the years before EU membership - in fact, with the erosion of collective rights in the 80s you could easily make an argument that we have lost employment protection rights while we've been in the EU (EEC) versus the time before joining. Since we've been in the EU, we've played a part in every bit of legislation that protects us as employees, consumers so we haven't passively been gifted those rights, and there's no reason to suppose that we will see our rights erode if we leave.

This is much more about national Government than the EU. Good luck to any prospective Government standing on a manifesto of turning back the clock on the elements of any protections that are valued by the electorate.

nb, you can argue about the merits or otherwise of a National minimum wage but we introduced ours in 1998 - any ideas of when the Germans introduced theirs ?

In a number of areas of welfare we're well ahead of the EU - animal welfare, important to many, is a good example - bullfighting anyone ?

[RED-DOG]

Does anyone know if continental quilts will still work after Brexit?

[bobAlike]

Does anyone know if continental quilts will still work after Brexit?

No the Togs will have to go back to Togo

[TightEnd]

More than 100 seats that backed Brexit now want to remain in EU

Major new analysis shows most constituencies now have majority who want to Remain

The penny has dropped in Labour constituencies (too late)

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/aug/11/more-than-100-pro-leave-constituencies-switch-to-remain?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[TightEnd]

Want to know why Boris has started banging on about Burquas? It's because May's Chequers plan is starting to work?

(and he is being advised by Bannon, using the trump strategy of appealing to the right and distancing from mainstream politicians)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-6051417/DAN-HODGES-Theresa-broken-wicked-Brexit-witches-spell.html