blonde poker forum

I saw this hand on Sunday, at DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), & I thought it rather interesting.

It was in the £150 Freezeout, 5k starting points, & we are in Level 2 (50-100).

The Table is typical DT (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/)D (http://www.dusktilldawnpoker.com/), everyone splashing around in pots, often 6 or 7 handed.

The Table influences are....

Random Scandie, fairly quiet.

Commodity Trader, old, with brown shoes.

Marcus (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1329) Bebb-Jones (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1329). (3,800 chips). He's lively, tricky, & busy.

A Substantial East Anglian Pig Farmer. Last Passed a hand in 1997.

Me. (5,000 chips). Asleep.

On my BB, there are six limpers (standard), & I am dealt  9d 3d,

We see this flop.

 Qd 8d 6d

The SB checks, I check. I'm hoping someone takes a little stab at this, then I'll C/R big, to protect my hand against the bare big diamond.

UTG, Marcus (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1329) Bebb-Jones (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1329), now bets 400 into 700. He attracts 1 caller, (Pig Farmer) then it gets back to me.

So......

What range do we ascribe to Marcus?

And what should I do?

Mr. Laxie reckons he has either  Jd Td , Kd Td or Ad at the very least and yer in trouble.  I reckon he has a decent diamond and an open end str8 draw.  GL with that.   rotflmfao

jam

Clear fold  ::)

So I should..........?

Why? (aka, "jam because?")

cos your ahead most of the time

Jam for value against Marcus- he's a station

Re-pop to 900 and 'ask the question'.

You winding the old chap up ? You should respect your elders,shocking

Wind up?!  Not a hope!  I've learned from the legend that is Gramps...just applying what he's taught us.

The SB checks, I check. I'm hoping someone takes a little stab at this, then I'll C/R big, to protect my hand against the bare big diamond.

The problem with this thinking for me is the chance to win a significant pot is pretty limited. You flop a flush like 2% of the time so it's a very rare occurence. When it does happen if you check hoping to entice a little stab and then C/R big, all you're gonna win is someone's little stab (unless you're beat). That doesn't seem a big enough reward for a rare hand like this. A protecting your strong hand mentality should be replaced with a making the most chips with your strong hand mentality imo. I think betting out into 6 other players is a better strategy...hopefully to entice that bare big diamond to raise, or somebody else to make a move. Then you can come back over the top. This is a better way to generate a bigger pot imo, especially at a table where chips are being splashed around. It is also a better strat for the stack sizes in play, cos when it gets back to you in this hand there's 30% of your stack in the pot, so jamming isn't unreasonable vs a pot-committing raise. If you bet out there could well be a much bigger % of your stack in there by the time it gets back to you. And if you're gonna put your stack in there the bigger the value you can muster the better imo.

i don't understand what "to protect my hand against the bare big diamond" means. you want him to fold?

quite like mantis' line. as played raise for value from bare ace, sets, any old crap pig farmer might have

Yup I like Mantis's line as well to lead out, it disguises your hand better and with stack sizes as allows to get it in if we get raised. So getting better value for our holding, check/raising here just screams strength and gains less chips generally.

Thank you for the great replies, particularly for those by MANTIS, byron, & Longy - I agree wth them, with hindsight, & like the explanations as to "why". My only (minor) quibble would be this.......

i don't understand what "to protect my hand against the bare big diamond" means. you want him to fold?

True, & no. But I get in a mess here if I check, & they all check behind, & THEN the 4th Diamond turns or rivers!

But this is the essssence of the hand, I think, as Posted by MANTIS, & agreed with by byron & Longy & several others......

I think betting out into 6 other players is a better strategy..

With which, in hindsight, I wholly concur.

Now, 1 more question.......

forget the hand, was it the "female" or male pig farmer?

So, we should have bet out - pot-sized? - for the reasons detailed above.

Right, we bet out, let's say about the pot - 1,500 ish.

What do we do if Marcus now shoves? He has, I think,  3,400 behind at this juncture.

Female.

May I enquire as to why you used inverted commas for "female"?........

Automatic call for the 1,900 odd more

His range is a bare big diamonds, and sets as well as made flushes. If he has one so be it

In this case, inverting the commas would be infinitely preferable to inverting the female.

Snap, oh and fist pump shove whilst your at it

He shoves and it's hand in the air time, surely that's the result you want?

Other reasons to bet out include...a) avoiding the checked round scenario you fear...and b) because you maximise your oppo's potential to make a mistake. Let's say you check the flop and then jam to a bet...which was the original strat...you are now asking your oppo to make a 5k mistake by CALLING all his chips into the pot with a worse hand. There will be very few hands that will make that 5k mistake if they can't beat you imo. However, when you bet out...and I would suggest 400 in order to entice a raise...you are then giving any one of 6 oppos the opportunity to RAISE 2k with worse. So you can see a much greater range of hands will raise 2k than call 5k...and as such you're giving max rope for oppos to make a cheaper and more easily made mistake with worse. And you must look for ways to give max rope to these hands to make it a longterm winning hand for you...cos you will get beat sometimes. As played the chips go in quick.

Which neatly explains a huge weakness in my game - getting value for my "big" hands.

But the hand has not finished yet.........

so you were looking to pot bet pass were you?

cant believe your asking this question, its 1900 more is there a question to ask?

Never - where did I suggest that? I was never Passing.

Wait until the whole "reveal". The hand was, I thought, played very "interestingly", & I thought it worth sharing the "what's & why's" by both players. It's perfect PHA fodder, in my view, from which I, for one, have learned something. If he shoves, what do we think he has?

So, we should have bet out - pot-sized? - for the reasons detailed above.

Right, we bet out, let's say about the pot - 1,500 ish.

What do we do if Marcus now shoves? He has, I think,  3,400 behind at this juncture.



you wasnt asking what he had you were asking what we do? not a valid question imo thats all
if you asking what he might have then he probably gambling with the ace of diamonds

I usually bet out around half the pot here but I don't mind the check either.

If it's checked round as long as we see a none diamond (which statistically we should) our lead out then looks far more like a steal attempt and much more likely to induce a raise.

In the context of PHA, & learning something (me certaihly, & maybe others) the question is wholly relevant. "What do we do?" & "what has he got?" are kinda linked.

I loved the way the hand played, but please note I have not finished explaining it yet. I just think I/we learn more if we take it step by step.

Matt, what are you putting Marcus on here?

For Marcus to limp UTG. Assuming the tabke has been reasonably aggro as they usually are:-

AA or KK with the diamond. Possibly QQ.

If he has AA or KK without the diamong I expect him to bet out more.

If we describe Marcus as...lively, tricky, & busy, his range is relatively wide...but calling UTG condenses it a bit. Anything from the bare big diamonds, A-Q, sets, over-pairs and the made flush all figure imo.

If, hypothetically, he does have the made flush here, is there any way we can not do the lot here?

No.

Marcus is lively and tricky but definitely not stupid.

He isn't often limping AQ utg unless there's a short stack somewhere and he's expecting a shove.

Sets definitely a possibility but I doubt a made flush. Can't see him limping  suited connectors unless the table has been letting limps get through.

Maybe if Marcus has been aggro throughout he thinks that he might get a limp through with a suited ace as people will suspect a big hand and be wary. If that's the case we've been coolered because it's all going in if the turn doesn't bring another diamond.

WOW is his range really that small ?

BTW I think it's better the way you do it street by street,fwiw imo a lot of people are way to results orientated with how they say they'd play a hand once they've seen the outcome.

No way we're ever getting away from it on this flop, if we're coolered and beat so be it but v unlikely we are

Thanks Mr Too.

I'll do the reveal later today, I gotta pop out now.

The way the hand played was a real eye-opener, & many of the replies on here, have been great. I've certainly picked up a few tweaks which will help me.

To lead out that small yes I do. He thinks his hand is massive and is inviting a raise so that he can shove imo. I think we should be obliging him now.

Possibly factor in the other sets and a very small chance of suited diamonds but I'm definitely swaying to a big pair with a diamond.

Since your both notts regs i'm guessing u'd no his range better than me  ;)

I've been known to be wrong though. I have a feeling this could be one of those situations.

Is limping with A-Q UTG stupid? I do it sometimes and i've seen Marcus do it sometimes...it's less stupid than limping UTG with A-rag cos they're sooted. Marcus has always had a strat where he likes to juice the pot when he's ahead and so you must put hands that beat you into the equation because he wouldn't slowplay a made flush vs 6 oppos. That said, it shows why we must play this hand to max the value from worse to make up for the times when he has coolered us.

If you're on a table where you're expecting 5 callers it's certainly not smart. If you're expecting a raise, fair enough but otherwise I don't really rate it.

If it's been a limpy table then we can probably add the suited connectors in to the equation as well. If it's been aggro then he's unlikely to limp with something he doesn't want to call a raise with. They're not really deep enough to be wasting chips looking to hit 2 pair, flushes and straights.

checkraise is not a gr8 plan for u gramps. you are basically saying i have 2p+ as you are not active enough (usually) to have a wider range imo. just call and see what happens on the turn.

Did i miss the flop action?

Doesn't Tikay have a problem with both options as any decent player will realise his range for either check-raising or leading out here from the sb into 6 limpers is prob 2p/sets&flushes - maybe at worst something like  Ad 9c?

lol at this being Marcus's range for limping

He limps with everything and does not fold easily! Believe me- I keep trying to bluff him for some stupid reason lol

I don't think a pig farmer, a random scandie, and someone in brown shoes is going to put an unknown on min 2-pair in the 2nd level just because he leads out. Generally leading out is deemed as weakness to unknowns...weaker than the c-raise at any rate.

I don't like c-calling the flop in this spot cos the turn action is usually difficult to generate and checking again gives a potentially free card to bigger diamond draws.

I wear brown shoes  ;carlocitrone;

and its a sophisticated pig farmer.

I'm not saying that this is his limping range.

I'm saying that in this case where he's limped utg, there's 7 in the pot and he's lead out for 400 with 6 to act behind him I suspect this kind of range.

If he checks here I suspect his range to be atc. However he hasn't so I don't.

Well if his limping range is pretty wide, there are all kinds of hands that would lead here. Qx, 2pr, big diamonds, set and made flushes.

We got as far as Marcus betting about half the pot on the Flop, the rest passed, then it got back to me.

What to do, why, & what Marcus might have were the next question.

I'd quite like Flushy's reply before taking it to it's conclusion, & before I explain why I Posted the hand.

Pretty sure you can give the conclusion and he'll still give same reply... ... so give us the blidey conclusion,please  ;D

Oh, he'll say I mangled it. And he'd prob be right.

But there's a supplementary, which is gonna cause some heat. And we will NOT agree on that, for sure. ;)

Err you've lost me here but ok.Patience is a virtue and all that

I think UTG probably has pair and a big diamond... can he be limping UTG with  Ad Ac or  Kd Kc   ?? i would of thought this is more likely at an aggro table where he is getting a rase behind a good % of the time... but  Kd Q x have to be in his range here.. but a set is a HUGE % of his range. If, as you say, the 'pig farmer' is playing every pot, then its conceivable that he has continued in the pot with any piece, and im never too worried about him. If i am in your spot, i am raising nearly all the time i think. It does unfortunately turn your hand face up as 2 pair or (and probably) better... But, if you flat call here and it comes a blank (non diamond etc), then what will be your plan?? if you check and it gets checked around your giving free cards vs 2 players. Calling the flop and leading the turn might be ok though, but i know im raising most of the time here.
i am raising (fairly big) and IF UTG has flopped a bigger flush GG.. but i think he can definately put it in with worse here (sets, AA w/d etc etc)... and you never know, maybe the pig man stacks off  with top pair, or bare diamond.

Nice first Post Mr Needa Sir, welcome to blonde.

FWIW, you refer to Pig Farmer as "he", but it's a "she".

She's not really central to the hand.

ok i understand that, but while in the hand, obviously you have to take into account she is in the pot... that was the point i was making..
Reading through your opening post again, i noticed you said you was checking the flop with an intention... to check raise the flop big to protect your hand etc...
I would of done exactly that. The action behind isnt sufficient  for me to deviate away from original intention.. I think some people who have posted here have actually under valued the strength of your hand.. I mean its not every limped, multi way pot you flop a flush from the BB with 93. MBN. But on the same note, it is a limped pot, and you obviously may see  Kd Jd.. but if that is the case.. GG UL etc..

while this is true and i think fine in a deeperstacked comp with an ambiguous image i dont think its optimal here. Stacks are shallow, raising/donking makes it hard to get value or for out opponent to make a huge mistake. tikays image on the live scene is a big part of this. Imo just call and then let them do something crazy on the turn, like doublebarreling an overpair with no diamond to protect. FWIW we should never be all that concerend about giving free cards here, stacks are so shallow that this pot will be critical, so we should play it to maximise value not to protect our stack.

yeh seeing a safe turn is good advice also... checking turn, hoping UTG will bet / call off with an over pair (with or without diamond)..
I think especially with the stacks so shallow i am rasing big, making UTG commit stack on flop though...
Nice point about image though.. played with mr TK for like an hour at GUKPT Brighton... pretty new to circuit!

also can i just say, why does tikay take like 8 pages to reveal the outcome of a hand :) Its like hes writing a script and wants to max every 1-liners impact! cmon gramps, dish dish!!!!

So you've yet to see me play a hand, right?

I Finalled in that Event too, but more importantly, outlasted all the Kidz. Happy memories. ;)

I was hoping to get the FlushMeister's take first, but OK, I'll do it shortly.

ok wait for bossman. forgot about that.

We should make this a regular feature.... call it:

The Tikay Teaser!

FYP

Gotta keep top of the post counts somehow!

FWIW - I'm in the "lead out" category here with a view to getting it all in.

The Reveal - & then the supplementary........

I think everyone who Posted on the Thread should read their replies again, to see how near the mark you were.

The advice was terrific - to, & for, me - thank you - but most of you misread the situation, exactly as I did.

Marcus, who led out on the flop, after I checked, was holding the absolute cocoanuts -  Ad 5d

I re-raised him now, (probably mangling the amount, but the message was "I'm not Passing OK?), so Marcus went into the tank,  gave it considerable dwellage, & an Oscar-winning performance, before shoving all-in. I had pre-determined I would Call if he did, & I did, leaving myself down to 1,200 or so if I lost. At 50-100, that's a mountain of chips.

I take on board the good advice that as I thought my hand was the nuts, I should have led out on the Flop. Which was exactly what Marcus did, totally wrong-footing me in the process.  (And most of you, judging by the replies). In fact, it played the same either way.

1) I thought Marcus deserved credit for playing the hand well.

2) I met Greekstein just before the Tourney, & he told me how much the PHA had helped his game, & this seemed a good hand to provoke some debate, & it certainly gave me a few good tips. The replies suggested Marcus would have wrong-footed most of you, too. So can we do better? Can we find a Pass?

3) Most of you, in my spot, stack off here. (Judging by the replies).

But........

We don't HAVE to stack-off here - we don't. In fact, if Marcus had me covered, (he did not) I woulda played this hand totally differently. I would have let go quite early. Marcus knows I'm a nit, & when he re-raised me, I shoulda realised the score, knew he knew, so to speak. It was a bad play by me.

I know almost all of you will say/.have said, "no, we have to do our chips here" - but we don't.

Several said "it's a cooler" I disagree. We can win, or cash in, Tourneys, by Passing, just as well as by getting all gung-ho every time there is a confrontation. There are much, much, softer situations available later. Ego is a big -ev factor. "I'm Billy Big Dick, I'm not Passing" costs so many people their Tourney lives. We give up too way too easily, omo.

Online, when we are 8 tabling 2 buck MTT's, no, a clear "it is  what it is, bugger it, I'm all-in". In a one-shot, 184 runner, Live Tourney, with £10k to the winner, a good player - I can think of several - can get off this. And THAT would be a super Pass.

Late on, with, say, 8 to 15 x BB, yes, we are dead, we commit totally. Early doors, with 50 x BB, & a soft field, we can find a better spot.

I'm off out, before the deluge of mirth begins.

Given al the circumstances - espcially Marcus knowing my early-stage image, I pass this, & don't do more than about 1,500 - my Re-Raise to his Flop bet. If he persists, I go away.

PS - Down to 1,200, I gathered myself, (I really enjoy more than anything else an uphill battle, against the odds), stuck in, & was above average within 5 Levels, eventually losing a flip with 30 odd left. Extremely enjoyable, & satisfying.

I just have a couple of questions Tikay.

Did it seem the sort of table where you could limp suited connectors and see a cheap flop?

Would you have considered limping with Marcus' hand in his position safe in the knowledge that you probably weren't going to face a raise?

Did you often get unraised pots on this table?

If you didn't was it usually Marcus doing the raising?

I wouldn't say he wrong footed many as Axd was a very small part of his range but the fact is his range is much wider than that and it was just a cooler,ul & great thread 

hmm... UL first of all.. but i disagree with some of what your saying..

you need to bare in mind, that although this time he had you beat.. he is getting it in there with hands such as  Ad Ac and  Kd Kc... also sets..... and your not that deep.  Obviously if your deep and / or he has  you covered then the hand takes a new dynamic.
You say about going crazy on the flop with your hand, but what exactly is the conservative option?? check call flop, then check turn with what intention?? to fold if he bets again? seems extremely weak...?? maybe im wrong i dont know.. mehhhh

and FWIW i agree, great thread!

Tikay you screwed up the reveal!

Why didn't you tell us that you raised then Marcus shoved?

That would give us all a chance to alter our guesses.

Not saying that I would pass this ever but in your situation with your reputation maybe you could.

Although saying that you have been known to use that reptuation to great effect on occasion.  Ahem 4s 7s

You often say 'ask the question' on the telly.  My understanding of that phrase was that you're leaving yourself a saver to get out of the hand without being too badly damaged.  Loads of things floating through my mind right now, but I've a feeling it'd be lost in translation.  UL anyway.

I think even if the table had been hyper active marcus would still try and limp UTG with this hand in this spots. It's the way he plays and it's obviously been very successful for him. He splashes around a lot early and plays all kids of hands- I'm sure had someone have raised pre he still would call.

Tikay you say it's not a cooler cos he obv knows your image but what do you think he does with:

1) A smaller flush

2) A flopped set

Do you think he's savvy enough to fold?

Tikay it is still a cooler and 50bb isn't paticularly deep, I believe it to be a mistake to ever fold in this spot unless it is some very weird bubble spot.

Marcus's play seems reasonable post flop, though the hand kind of plays itself. Do you think his preflop play is good, because i don't. Limping a5s utg with a 50bb stacks full handed is an error imo.

http://www.tworags.com/blog/bond18/post/1259/things_it_took_me_a_while_to_learn_part_6_strategy_and_mentality_lies

Firstly I love the fact that needa referred to one of your oppos as pig man...even if it should have been pig woman..or indeed pig girl.

More importantly, I don't agree with your assessment of the hand Tikay....especially this phrasing..."I'm Billy Big Dick, I'm not Passing"...because it's never about ego for many of us, it's about what's right. I see so many tournament players allow their stack to dribble away to uncompetitive oblivion, and that's a sure fire way to lose your best chance to win. In order to live you must be prepared to die, and whilst some of the time you can be fully aware you could be beat (this is usually much clearer afterwards btw) you still must have the courage to commit. In this hand there are just 4 hands that beat you..and that's after you've just hit a 118-1 shot yourself. Add to that the fact Marcus has a wider range than those 4 hands...eg he isn't folding   5d 7d EVER then you must commit to this.

Please remember all those times when you've called an oppo's push fearing the worst and they've turned over some crazy wtf weak holding. You MUST cultivate a courageous mentality inside yourself to win tournaments imo...big dick or not. If I didn't make this call here it would cost me money whenever I opted for the cautious route in the future when I feared the worst. To say you could have spotted it is very easy to say after...but before...all you could be spotting is a good bluff from an oppo who knows you fold flushes in this spot. You NEED to get your chips in here whether or not the result tells you different.

Yeah, just read somewhere that there's less than a 2% chance that your oppo flops a flush that beats you here. Is there a 2% chance that Marcus is tilting, making a mistake, bored, wants to go home, just playing bad, has Ad and just feels like gambling, has any of the other hands in his range?? All these things have a 2% chance of occurring here...and that's why you can't fold. Folding means you respect your oppos so much you think they never behave like a human being...and that's deffo gonna cost you money imo.

I like the comments here - I'm a first level thinkng live donk. Over the last couple of months I have generally started to give less respect to players moves and been more prepared to look silly making calls with either light holdings or in spots like the one described.

This has lead to more early exits and a greater number of cashes - overall positive - very small sample though

Is this whole thread a level??

If you don't stack off here I think its worse than stacking off!

I'm confused tikay

His range is AA,KK with diamonds, sets, two pairs, made flushes all of which he might well play the same way in this circumstance

You say you know of several players that can get off your hand here, presumably after he's come back over your check raise? Really?

You lead out, he raises.....given that range or similar how can you fold a made flush there?

You check raise, he pushes...for not a lot more how can you fold? He can have a bare big diamond just as often as a bigger made flush.

I've thought and thought and I, able to fold more weak-arsed than most, can't find a fold here under any post flop betting pattern unless you check, he checks the nuts and the turn brings another diamond

Nothing to do with ego that, but I think you're being too hard on yourself/results orientated suggesting you can find a pass

Not at all.

We are analysing a poker hand - that's why it's on the Poker Hand Analysis Board.

I Posted it for a bunch of reasons, as I previously explained.......

1) I thought Marcus played it well, & "interestingly".

2) He played it so deceptively that almost everyone on here who tried to guess his hand got it wrong. So that was educational, yes?

3) GreekStein, who I chatted with that night, said his game had improved leaps & bounds because of threads like this on blonde PHA, & this encouraged me to Post this.

As to my "ability" to Pass, well I won't argue with anyone - I well know that conventional thinking is that we have to stack off here. But I theorised that we do NOT have to stack off here. And we don't - but that's just an opinion, & something to ponder.
 

Agree with that.

Tikay, if you can find a pass here because "he knows I'm a nit", then you're leaving yourself open to be exploited are you not?

I'm not criticising you for posting it tikay, indeed I have given the thread a lot of thought so in that small sense its been perfect PHA material

btw limping A5d UTG with 50xbb? Is he intending to call a raise out of position?

Agreed, post flop he's got paid superbly

In order......

1) Yes.

2) No. I don't really get involved at this stage of this type of Tourney when everyone is limping in. I'm in, properly, with a R, or I Pass.

3) Yes. There were numerous family Pots. But Raising made no difference. An UTG Raiser made it 250 at 25-50 & got SIX callers. (All for 5% of their stack.....). So possibly Limping here was not as bad as traditional thinking suggests.

4) Yes, Marcus was probably the most active, followed by the Pig Farmer.

To give you an idea of how Passive the Table was, look at this hand......

Marcus makes it 500. Next to speak, (Commodity Trader) has 950 behind, after an accident - & FLATS the 500. Out of 950 total........ 5 more players all Call.

The flop came K high, Marcus (with AK) bet out, & Commodity Trader called. (Aces, obviously). And sextupled up.

I wouldn't be heaping too much praise on the guy for this particular pot.

Firstly, limping UTG with A5s? I can't imagine there's many here who think that's a good play? Esp with his stack size.

He led at it on the flop. Ok, a lot of people might check, but I think the bet is also fairly standard.

So with all respect to him, the fact that his dubious UTG limp ran into another made flush was more luck than good play imo.

Exactly - great PHA material. And I thought it'd be good to Post a hand that I think Marcus (or anyone) played so interestingly & deceptively, such that he lifted my leg a treat, & deceived almost every Poster on this thread.

I was always going to make the Call, as I clearly stated. But on reflection, I wondered whether I really had to. Calling when we are behind is a bad thing, however you dress up "oh, we have to call". Raising when behind is fine, of course.

I don't think he deceived every poster on the thread.  What most people are saying is that although Axd was in his range, it only makes up a small percentage of the possible hands he holds, and he plays a lot of other hands the same way.  It's a cooler, and if he plays the hand the same way with the other holdings you win more times than you lose.  The only hands he actually wins a lot of chips from you is you have a made flush.  Otherwise he doesn't get lucky and his play doesn't look as good does it?

You seem to be missing the point, that ability your reffering to would make you an absoulute donk to fold on that flop if someone isn't fist pump shoving when you get all his chips in on the flop then they should stop playing.The fact he had us is irrelelvant and as said by kin he didn't really fold many since Axd was said to be part of his range,also Axs limp utg is just tez imo

Haha, stop posting please. This is a clear level.

LOL,most likely

I advocated betting out with our flush, so by that rationale I say Marcus played his hand well. His starting stack suggests he's dropped a few chips and so bets out here for value vs players that can't pass (like pig man). This is typical Marcus strat actually cos he likes to pot build when he has it. But there's a world of difference between piggy and us in this example. I agree totally with Kin etc cos it's ok to KNOW part of his range beats us (I said made flushes were possible as did many others) but still commit anyway...isn't this what we do every time we don't have the absolute nuts? I've seen Marcus donk chips sometimes...we all donk chips sometimes...so Tikay-strat only holds up if Marcus/anyone never donks chips. To pass you have to say 100% of the time his range is less than 2% of hands...and that is Nostradamus poker imo.

Thanks for posting the hand thou Tony. Good discussion. Didn't like being told that getting it in here is conventional thinking thou. Lord knows I hate conventional thinking. Maybe we can find a fold afterall hmmm....

Hi Tikay,

You were definitely right that reading the PHA board has helped certain aspects of my game. Once you get over taking the Flushy beratement for the first time its much easier to use the facility for what it is - a great learning and discussion resource.

I hope you don't mind that I'm going to try and hi-jack the thread a little bit...

The fact that Marcus open limped into the pot utg makes this whole discussion most interesting because everyone has a different opinion on what his range could and should be.

My game is 6-max cash online so utg limping is not something you see very often at all and I certainly don't think is good play in this game. It's either too exploitable or your hand is too face up.

However, in a 10-handed live tournament is limping UTG with this hand going to be +EV in the long term assuming our table is neither particularly great or bad?

I never quite know how to react to someone limping UTG in a tournament. Say I pick up AJ or AQ in the cutoff I'm never quite sure what to do.

I am finding it surprising that people think playing Axs UTG is bad ? Does everyone think a limp UTG means a pocket pair or AK and thats it ? If you only play those hands UTG then how do you expect to get action on them ?

I have less of a problem raising axs utg which is what i would do with ak. Though short of flopping a flush what do you want to see in a multiway pot, it is a hand that has reverse implied odds and i would be surprised if anyone will show a long term profit from limping this hand utg.

So now the discussion comes to whether limping utg with a suited ace is a good move.

I would suggest that on a table where you are likely to get 5 callers it isn't bad at all. It's no worse that set mining imo although obviously the odds against hitting are higher so you need greater implied odds.

Even if you are facing a raise it's still not bad if the raise is likely to be small compared to your stack and you are going to get plenty of others in the pot.

Does someone know the odds against flopping a flush or flopping a flush draw?

I would think that a nut flush draw is the best we can realistically hope for and sets up a very nice semi bluff if it comes.

The hand is obviously easy to get away from if we miss so the potential upside maybe isn't so bad.

It all depends on the make up of the table. We can't be doing it if we are going to face a raise and end up heads up. That would be terrible as even if we hit the chance of being paid is next to nothing.

So I guess if Marcus was the one doing most of the raising and he knows that the table is made up of limpers he is justified in limping this hand. He doesn't want to raise with it as he knows he can't call a reraise. He also knows that if there is a raise before it gets back to him there are likely to be 4, 5 or even 6 players in a pot which is easy for him to play.

He is never likely to face tough decisions with his hand so maybe his limp wasn't as bad as some (including myself) have suggested.

Thats not the reason to play it though. You play it to make more money on your big hands from UTG. I would tend to raise with it aswell but on a passive limpy table I don't see much wrong with limping A5s UTG some of the time.

Limping with A-x UTG is usually pretty bad at a standard table cos your hand can't stand a raise, you'll be oop in the hand, and if you hit you'll prob lose. However a suited A at a table described as...everyone splashing around in pots, often 6 or 7 handed....has got pretty good implied odds about it. You're drawing to the nuts and the nuts will prob get you paid from multi-directions...so playing the hand is justifiable. A lot of players want to GET INTO a tournament early on so Marcus wont do this later on imo...also he's lost a few chips and this makes you inclined to gamble a bit light.

Balancing my range at a live table where i am going to play very few hands, is really not necessary imo. It literally takes 100's of hands online playing with someone to feel the need to balance my range against regs who are good enough to adjust.

I understand what you are saying. It is situation dependant and and in the one described I think the limp is fine. If he is lucky enough to be able to limp with AA in the next orbit UTG his hand will be well disguised and he is more likely to be raised next time so the effect on meta-game still applies even though we are only playing a relatively small amount of hands at this table.

limping utg with a5s is shit play FACT imo, mbn to flop the nuts but most of time no matter what the flop is you haven't got a clue were u are and your oop,so anyone who thinks this is a good play needs to re-assess there own game  imo table dynamics don't justfy this play again imo

I've never agreed with a post more.

I know this is a hero fold, but seriously Tikay I believe you're always losing money here in the long term.


Ego has nothing to do with it, we have a hand that beats the vast majority of his pushing range. It's not ego, it's simple mathematics and I think you're confusing many players' confident aggressive style for simple arrogance when they don't fold here when you do. They may well be arrogant, that's for sure but they're usually the biggest winners.

FWIW, Alex (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198) Martin (http://www.blondepoker.com/blondepedia/blondepedia_view_player.php?player_id=1198)'s idea of how to play the hand is probably best imo.


Plus you always have the backdoor straight flush....

Only heard about this thread over the weekend and like the way you dripped out the info.

I know I need to lose a few pounds Tony but I wasn't sat quite as close to you as you remember. You were in seat 8 and I was in seat 3 and there were 2 limpers in the pot before me, although that doesn't change the post flop action.

Did I really Hollywood it up that much? 

Cheers,

Marcus.

Marcus!

Yeah - you Hollywood-ed it big time - but I've no issues with that.

I think you played it cute, which was why I Posted the Thread, that, + the fact I just knew everyone would have widely varying opinions. And they did.....;)

You've had a bit of a mauling from the PHA experts for Limping, but given the table dynamic, I thought it was OK - especially given that any Raise was met with 5 callers!

It's a pleasure to share a Table with you Marcus, even though you stitched me up good & proper.

Next time......

This changes everything. The limp utg was one thing but now that we know there's already 2 limpers how many of us are passing a suited ace this deep?

I'd guess not many unless there's a player who likes to squeeze somewhere behind us.

To the best of my recollection (not much, then...) I was Seat 8, & Marcus was Seat 3, & there was only one limper before him.

But it was not the pre-flop action we were discussing.

I don't get what we are discussing then, because the rest is just standard. You flop a flush - you get your chips in. You stand Up.

The pre flop action is vital Tikay.

That's where we get our first idea of his range.

We assign a range given Marcus' pre flop play. Then we adapt that range given his action on the flop.

Marcus demonstrated to me how he "acted" in this hand the other night...and it was more Hollyoaks than Hollywood imo :)