blonde poker forum

Got an interesting (?)  question for you to step on.

Traditionally, Live Festival Main Events (assume a 4 day event with a guarantee of around £1 million) finish on a Sunday, with Days A & B on Thursday & Friday.

UKIPT now make 1a & 1b Friday & Saturday, with Day 2 Sunday, & the Final on Monday.

Is this better - for most - than the traditional Sunday finish?

Assuming a 1,000 runner field, 1% - 10 players - would need to return on Monday, & if that included recreationals, the chance of a 6 figure payday must surely be worth a day off work? Pros would not be too fussed either way, presumably?

At the front end of the Event, Days A & B move from Thurs/Fri, to Fri/Sat, so it is one day less off work, or even no days off at all.

Pros & cons, & why, yes please.   

You're making an assumption that the extra day off work is a possibility. I cannot take any days off my job outside of scheduled holidays and I'm sure I'm not the only rec that falls into this category. I'd love to give a couple of these a spin but unfortunately I cannot. I refuse to take 'sickies' as the whole idea of that doesn't sit well with me at all. The GUKPT is in my hometown in the next couple of weeks and whilst all the locals are getting very excited, I cannot play at all.

The whole 4day comp completely ruins me for anything, except in school hols unfortunately.

i like fri/mon from an operator point of view. more chance of two bumper day ones with one taking place on a saturday

i think it is better for most players too, particularly travelling players, who would not play thurs, waiting with an empty day for a day two on a saturday

downside would be difficulty of getting an atmosphere for a final table on a monday, but then again you are comparing with an often late night sunday final where getting a stream audience, say, is tough after midnight

a compromise on these two ideas seems to be what DTD often does and has two day ones on the same day, early and late, so the working players can play the late one if they want to. Straight from work and jump in second level or so is a possibility for those with regular hours.

For the record UKIPT Edinburgh is Thurs/Sun as was Bristol, so perhaps they have gone back to that after trying finals on a Sunday.

For me I much prefer final day to be on a sunday, so if I miss a Sunday online, I'd like it to be for a deep run/final table.

Tbh, I imagine most people prefer a Sunday finish. From the pros POV it doesn't matter too much either way, although as bergeroo said if you're going to miss a Sunday for a live tournament it's probably better that it's a tournament that's already a deep run. Certainly for me, these Monday/Tuesday day 2/3s are a pain because it has to fit around work, and I would prefer it if I could turn up on the Friday night, play a day 1 and then (hopefully) play day 2 Sat and day 3 Sun. Also I imagine from the pros pov, if finishing on Sunday invites more recreational players to come along then it's got to be a good thing, and since the atmosphere atm is very much about making the game as accessible as possible for the recreational players I'm surprised to see the move to midweek finishes.

Final only effects a handful of people being on Monday.  Recs can now play both day 1 and 2 on the weekend without affecting work plans.  Looks sensible to me but it will always give the impression of having to take monday off work to the recs (stupid because they have to take thurs or fri off to 100% play a day 1).  Recs don't always think logically though.  Surely any rec will realise they will have to take one day off work if they final a 3 day event so surely it's better for that day to be the final as they are 100/1+ to make the final.

Surely it's better to take a day off work when you know you'll be playing, rather than take a day off work when you aren't sure you will be?

Correct but you are 100/1+ to need to waste a day's holiday if the final is on Monday. You can play 99% of these comps without wasting any holidays if the final is on Monday. That's my point.  Assuming you can just phone up work on Monday morning and take the day off.  Big assumption i know.  You will only be in this spot once every twenty years on average and will have at least £5k in cash to ease the problem.

Saying all that i would prefer the comp to finish on a Sunday personally.  Holidays make no difference to me so if recs think it is easier for them with a Sunday finish then we pander to their needs.

Not many jobs work like that any more

Just ringing the boss up late Sunday to say you need the Monday of is not a reality in 95% of jobs

If it means a reasonably timed finish on Sunday then I'd always prefer the Monday final option.

If we're still finishing at stupid o'clock on Sunday just to squeeze in more levels then I'd rather them change the structure.

If Sunday's going to finish some time up to about 6am depending on how well you do then you have to book Monday off anyway.

Finish 10pm Sunday, restart 2pm Monday to a finish approximately 8 hours later is much better than playing through to a finish up to 6am Sunday.

The issue is the unknown at such a stupid time of night which effectively ruins your next day anyway. Not knowing if you'll finish at 2pm or 10pm is so much better than not knowing if you'll finish at 10pm or 6am.

Pulling a sickie once in twenty years on a day you might win £60k isn't the biggest crime in the world in order to avoid using half your holiday allowances every year to play day 1's of these comps. 

Gross misconduct isn't any kind of crime never mind being one of the biggest.

It might well cost you your livelihood though.

Very nice, son. You're dirty.

Honestly, I think these comments are a long way removed from the real world Arbboy. In my experience (which admittedly is only two jobs in the private sector) that's not how jobs work, and I think there is little reason to put people in that position when the final day could just be shifted to Sunday and not be a problem.

I think most people would struggle to get a duvet day for the Monday so you're either a) pulling a sickie or b) relying on your boss being a decent bloke and realising this is a once in a lifetime sort of thing

Most places I've worked I'd say the boss would normally be OK with b). Obviously as a rec you shouldn't play if you know you have unbreakable commitments on the Monday or it would massively leave people in the lurch.

The only real question is - which gets more punters through the door?

There's your answer for which is better.

That rather misses the point - see Argue's replies.

The WHOLE IDEA is to see if a Monday finish would make the event more accessible for recreational players. Bear in mind, 1,000 runner event, how many recreatiional players will need to turn up on Monday for a 9 player Final Table?

Deduct one point, you missed the other Happy Mondays song title in the OP.

Get that, & Bob's yer uncle.

And that is exactly what the question is about.

Too many other factors in play to say well if this one gets more than the last one then it's fixed it. But I would guess, based on nothing other than people I know who fit the rec model, that Sat-Mon is more appealing than Fri-Sun.

You and Arbboy seem to both be missing the point imo.

It's not about the fact that only 9 of the 1000 runners will have to play the final on monday. It's about the fact that every single one of the runners will have to be prepared to play it on a monday. With a full time job that's not very easy at all.

Do I get extra points for realising it's an album title not a song title. And a crap album at that?

This situation happened to a professional gambler and highly esteemed blonde.

He had a good steady job and had made a final on a day he was scheduled to be working. No worries, just do a sickie he thought.

He went on to win the £500 final table in Bristol for a cool £36,750.

His work found out and he was sacked.

His name was Neil Blatchley.

Hence the question. I don't believe the answer is clear cut either way. It's a thinking out loud exercise.  On balance, I think the Monday option is not without merit.

Not trying to pick a fight, but this is completely unacceptable to me. A lot of people take a lot of pride in what they do and wouldn't be prepared to put extra strain on their colleagues by behaving in such an unprofessional manner. Hence why I and many other recs won't play any comp that doesn't finish on a Sunday.

I totally get that point.  The flip side everyone is missing is that recs who play one of these ten months of the year will waste 10 days holiday a year to play the day one on the Friday so they can finish on the Sunday. Over twenty years they will make one final on average so waste 200 days holiday over twenty years when if the event finished on Monday they would only have to book one day off work albeit last minute and probably have to sweeten up their boss to make it happen.  There is a huge upside of playing on Monday which everyone else apart from me is not taking into account.

You'd have to be some sort of a tosser of a boss not to let an employee take a days holiday to play a FT where they could win £50k or whatever.

This

This is exactly it. No point entering an event if you can't play the final table! Might as well set fire to your dough instead.

I appreciate that so you have no other option but to set fire to all those holidays if you are in a profession which has no flexibility like teaching etc.  I am sure the majority of people across all professions could easily get a Monday off last minute if they were in this situation once every twenty years.  For most recs it will happen once in their lifetime.

You two have been out of employment for a long time and it shows!

I completely disagree with the statement.

If you know you're going to play a tournament that finishes on a monday, take the monday off well in advance. You get 25 odd days a year of annual leave. Why should your colleagues/team/company take the brunt of your social activities by having to come in on a monday and be told 'x is still playing poker' so deal with all their workload with no advance warning.

I only worked for 3 years in the company I was at and in a junior role too but it would have been seen as completely unprofessional to do something like that and I'd have expected some kind of disciplinary warning if anyone found out.

It's just not how it works in most workplaces that you can have a day off at the drop of a hat.

Employers make allowances for short notice 'days off' for things like medical appointments, things happening to family members or more serious things such as deaths etc. I think that's already reasonable. I didn't expect my employer to make such an allowance for me when I was working and now that I play poker for a living I don't expect other people's employers to be so lenient either.

It's not that you won't get the day off.  It's the impression it gives when they are working out your bonus/promotion.  If your boss is me then no problem.  But to many bosses you'll have just taken a day off at late notice to gamble.

Obviously the work place nowadays doesn't work where work mates cover for each other's shifts at short notice even if you incentivise them accordingly.

I have just texted ten friends who are non pro gamblers and have real jobs whether they could phone up work tomorrow morning or tonight and ask for an emergency day off tomorrow as a holiday not as sick and nine said they could do that easily with no hassle.

Meh, you tell them you won a seat for a tenner or something.

I haven't much experience of proper work, but still in this spot none of my bosses would have stopped to think, they would have said "sure, take it off and good luck."

Obv if you're a nurse, doctor, teacher etc, it isn't that easy, but almost all jobs in the private sector must have a bit of flexibility.

Yes this is what I was trying to get at

Didn't affect him too badly. He had a shot and lived the life for a year or so, robbed people busto'd his family to pay them back and went back to a reasonably senior job in a highly respectable industry.  How he got his current job in that industry given his past is quite amazing. Don't firms Google people prior to interviewing them nowadays?

Sounds like it worked out just fine for him with £36k on top.  Without getting sacked he probably would never have taken a shot and give himself a chance to make it coming from an accountancy background.

Hold up - you saying you have 10 friends?

Ok drinking partners!!!!

Another thing is that there is usually a supporting event on the Sunday and that makes it worthwhile for people to travel as they have a comp to play in if they miss the final.  I would guess that a supporting event on a Monday wouldn't be a huge success.

Also can't see why the day 1s can't start at say 4pm, most people could make that or register a bit late.  If that means Saturday is a long day to play down to the final, just live with it, it can't be worse than a Monday final.

Or you'd be a Head Teacher.

In fact there are lots of jobs where an unscheduled day off has a major impact.

Personally I quite like the idea of a Monday FT, but I don't work now so why wouldn't I? But just assuming that everyone can snap get a day off by ringing up on Sunday night is plain wrong.

Everyone can't.  I think more than 50% could though.  I find it amazing how workers with kids are allowed to have emergency days off for one off incidents yet single people who choose not to have kids are not allowed the same when they need it for different reasons in a totally one off situation.  Similar to how smokers are allowed to stand outside work probably for an hour a week smoking in 5 minute spells but non smokers just have to suck it up and don't get an hour less at work a week.

Makes me happy to be out of the corporate world where yes men rule if it is that tough in 2015.  In all the jobs i had between 1990 and 2002 it would have been relatively simple to get cover for a day off at short notice from work mates and/or talk the boss into giving you a day off in the vast majority of different jobs i did outside of gambling.  Do people still talk to each other at work nowadays or just constantly on their iphones during breaks etc?  Sounds like a grim world out there.

Probably lucky that I have never  been a job where I couldn't ring up on any given day and say I need the day off. You accrue this benefit by being an excellent employee before you ask for it.

Also, you don't have to say you need the day to gamble, you just need the day.

A bit moot whether people in general would want to 'waste' 200 days lifetime (lol as usual at extremes to support a point). It's not a waste of a day if you opt to take a day off to pursue your pastime.

I like my job unless the ft is life changing money ( realise this amount will vary by individual )
i not taking an unplanned day off work and i have never pulled  sickie
Would not being phoning my boss on Monday morning asking to take day off
think this would be taking the piss
i just would not be comfortable asking for no notice time off so that i can play cards

Always avoided any comp that finishes on a Monday. Stopped playing the UKIPT when they changed it

Don't know what you do, but loads of people have jobs where meetings are arranged every day and it's really quite insulting to just cancel these and waste a lot of people's time because you can't organise your life properly.

Most people I know couldn't either, I consider myself lucky at probably about 50/50 I could duck off in the afternoon to play it, but I have a weird job that involves me working on my own most of the time, not in an office or anything.

Definitely make main events 3 days only. 

I prefer Friday to Sunday as I need to take a day off.  I am always booking the day off on Monday.  Maybe a few bosses I have had would let it go, not sure many would forget though.  Just feels very unprofessional and I wouldn't do it.   

Much better to get unexpected free time on Saturday and Sunday than Sunday and Monday.  Would likely just get grouchy not getting paid on a Monday.  Meh guess I could play poker late on Sunday.

Agree obviously. Those people shouldn't take a holiday

Guys who are saying your boss is a tosser/ take a day off have no idea how working for a living works.

It's not the day off that matters more the impression it leaves and the perception that you're not committed to your job. Can be hugely damaging.

Reading all this does make me think like most people's work is some form of imprisonment. Always think my employer is lucky to have me at all and this does give one a massive degree of flexibility. If they don't want they are quick to get rid and I never forget that however senior I've been..If they felt they were better off without me they'd save the money

How many people who work 'normal' jobs never discuss gambling/poker at work and no one at your place of work would have any clue you played poker/gambled if perception is so important in the work place which this thread indicates?  I am really interested if it still has that taboo now given how widespread advertising is on TV/how accessible casinos are now for nights out at the weekend for non gamblers etc compared to 15 years ago.

I think it's still very much taboo, most employers I don't think really give a shit what you do with your private life as long as it doesn't bring the people you work for into disrepute and as long as you turn up on time and do your job. It's only when you don't tick those boxes that it becomes a problem. In my experience, my non-poker playing family, work colleagues and people at uni all like to think they know poker is just gambling, will ruin your life and is evil, and even though you sit there and tell them people can make a living at it etc they just won't believe you. Imo, all forms of gambling are lumped together in people's minds, and the overall perception that it's a bad thing, and certainly that it's not ever anything more than a hobby, is still there.

I think it's still very much taboo, most employers I don't think really give a shit what you do with your private life as long as it doesn't bring the people you work for into disrepute and as long as you turn up on time and do your job. It's only when you don't tick those boxes that it becomes a problem. In my experience, my non-poker playing family, work colleagues and people at uni all like to think they know poker is just another form of unbeatable gambling, will ruin your life and is evil, and even though you sit there and tell them people can make a living at it etc they just won't believe you. Imo, all forms of gambling are lumped together in people's minds, and the overall perception that it's a bad thing, and certainly that it's not ever anything more than a hobby, is still there.

I just texted 11 friends and 10 of them said they either couldn't get the day off or that if their boss knew it was for poker/gambling it wouldn't look good at all.

They all also said that I'm really cool and they like me a lot. I didn't even ask that part.

There's very little understanding about poker and gambling in real world jobs. I would never mention it at an interview for example and play down what I do outside work

I don't mind too much now because I've been there a long time, know all my colleagues really well personally and my feet are well under the table. But if I was to start a new job I would proceed with caution for sure.

You have 11 friends? Why didn't # 11 reply?

 
Was really most surprised at the resistance to the potential Monday off. I mean, mathematically, it's going to happen once in 40 or 50 years (I'm assuming the Tourney is a twice a year affair with 1,000 runners), & the potential top prize is, to most of us, close to life-changing.

As an employee or employer, it's always been my line that a good employee, one who performs his work well, efficiently, & is always ready to go the extra mile for his employer, should have no qualms about asking for a day off once in a lifetime. As an employee, I have always given good value, & if ever I needed a favour, I was never shy in asking to call it in.

We also have to define "sickie". If we mean feign sickness, no way, I'd never suggest or do that in a million years.  But if I needed a day off, I'd certainly ask, & no reasonable employer would turn me down. 

Anyway, appreciate the replies, thank you.

I think George has most things I was going to say covered.

No way would I throw a sicky on the basis of a final day of a comp. I'd be to bothered thinking how I would cover it at work to play my best anyway. Given most people at work knew I played poker, keeping a big score quiet would be quite hard (I would imagine)

Win the £200,000, & bring one of these into work on the Tuesday, you'll be fine.


(http://static.au.groupon-content.net/05/70/1333520897005.jpg)

model 1

day 1 thurs
day 1 fri
day 2 sat
day 2 and final sun

model 2

day 1 fri
day 1 sat
day 2 sun
day 3 and final mon

model 2 is going to produce more runners than model 1 isn't it? thursday day ones are always less populated than fri and saturday?

Yes, & I'd bet good money on that.

So why play the sky poker main event over 4 days?

And why not day 1 online. Day 2 Saturday, day 3 Sunday?  Better than all 3?

I wouldn't be able to play either model, hence why I don't get involved in any of these style comps.

Think the 25/25 series has it nailed for the working man to be honest. If you want to attract more recs ( as everyone seems to want to) is there any mileage in their model?

That would not work for a mixed event (two different businesses, hosted at DTD) such as UKIPT. Both businesses would want to hold the Online Day one. Don't think mix & match would work. 

For many Online Poker operators, a Festival is seen as something of a get together, part social occasion, part poker Tourney. I get your drift, yes, but it would not work in many cases. 

A day one online and a Sunday finish for me is ideal.

I run my own business and taking a Monday off last minute is extremely problematic. Easier to plan a Friday off in advance if I want to play. Hence I'm not playing any WPT at DTD.

I think that 25/25 thing is very good, but these things are rarely "one size fits all", are they?

Of course not, but they do get a lot of recs through the door. Surely that says something? The 4 day model is just simply inaccessible to many people.

Yup, I totally get that.

Obviously you'll be more familiar with your career than I am, but didn't you part ways with Bl Sq because you made a final table and the gaffer wouldn't give you the day off??

As for other employees, most don't work in the gambling sector.  So the boss won't have taken a 10% slice prior, or even know anything about poker.


I've spoken to poker players at 7pm and make solid (deposit required for cancellation) 8pm dinner plans that saw them somehow subsequently enter an (unspectacular) evening poker tournament at 7:30.  I don't think a large portion of poker players realise just how out of whack they are with the rest of the workforce.


I've also sat both sides of this.  The trouble is, the employee that thinks they are a good employee and can always take a Monday off at short notice if they [drink too much Sunday/make a poker FT/don't feel like it/insert any spurious reason] probably already have a track record of calling in that favour far too often.

For genuinely good employees, it is such a rare occurence that an employer knows it must be something massive for them to ever do this and there be no problems.  For a large tranche of employees that think they are good employees, they actually have 12 grandparent funerals to go to each year, (all of which were scheduled overnight for the following day so no prior notice could be given...) 9 washing machine floods, 3 flight cancellations etc.

In the white collar jobs I've had, cancelling a Monday IS a major ballache, that is a lot of meetings rescheduled and/or a lot of other people put out by your actions.  You won't get to do it very often, even if you 'deserve' it.
In the blue collar jobs I've had, cancelling a Monday puts an extra strain on the rota, assuming your tasks won't wait for you Tuesday and therefore your workmates get to bear the extra brunt for you.  If one of those workmates had tried to book that Monday off 3 months ago, but was told that there were too many people off already, then you decide to help yourself to the day off on Sunday evening too, you aren't going to be getting a Christmas card.

Nope, there was a lot of things wrong with my relationship with Blue Squirrel, but the boss was extremely accommodating with letting me have time off for poker.

Your memory is pretty good though, because I left another job after I had booked a week off to play a poker tournament and just before the start of the main event my boss there asked me to come in on the Friday. I refused and it made my continuing working there untenable.

I've found this thread extremely interesting but at the same time some of the naivety being shown is quite embarrassing.

I work for one of the biggest professional services firm's in the world with taking days off at late notice not being too frowned upon, but when it comes down to taking days off late notice to gamble/play cards then questions are going to be asked. Of course you can lie and rock up on the Tuesday, £x richer trying with a guilty conscience.

These events obviously need whatever is going to get the most punters through the door and I'm not sure which of the two scenarios gets that.

Personally, I think if the tournament organisers can ensure a 11/12pm finish on a Sunday (going on a ~1 hour travel time) then this would be my preferred structure. This enables me to go into work on the Friday morning, travelling Friday mid-afternoon to make Day 1 (not to much of a problem if the first level or so is missed and only taking half a days holiday for the weekend.

At the end of the day, the event organisers are never going to be able to make the punters happy, playing a decent structured tournament.

You make an interesting (to me) point there, I've probably attended (off -table) more poker Main Events than most, and I'm not sure many, especially the fun players, much appreciate 3am finishes.

Online it's different, we turn off the computer & are in bed monutes later, but in Live poker, once we add in a bit of travel, & you are looking at an all-nighter.   

This thread is basically full of people (including me) extrapolating from personal experience, which while interesting is fairly useless.

One thing that most of you on both sides seem to be missing is this is literally a one-off thing. How many final tables of a £500+ tournament is the average rec likely to make? It's not like you're asking for every other Monday off.

But I do agree in some jobs it's never possible and in all others you will have to see what kind of Monday it is before you buy in. Some Mondays are just not possible in any job.

I agree with Greeky and George.
Amusing that the 2 people with the biggest view about employers and what they should do, havent or couldnt work for anyone for decades . :)

Why make factually incorrect statements on both counts about people you don't even know personally?

I think the biggest factor here (hence my question last night) is having a day off at short notice for 'gambling', as a total once in a lifetime spot which this is potentially winning life changing money, would be generally frowned upon by your corporate bosses even though it is your hobby.  

If i changed the question to the same Sunday night/Monday morning with no notice because someone has cancelled and i have a spare ticket and i have a once in a lifetime experience for your other biggest passion in life (VIP centre court tickets at Wimbledon with hospitality if you are a tennis fan or tickets/backstage passes/private jet to fly you to the concert in Europe etc for your favourite artist that evening) i am assuming it would be easier to get the day off work for some because it would be more 'socially acceptable use of a day's holiday by you'.

....not sure Chas and Dave do Europe anymore, but I would be tempted.

I think this is exactly what I would post, perhaps less eloquently, if I wasn't on my phone. Redundant answers generally because they are so personal to your own circs

Absolutely this.

If it's a once in five years thing, it would be a very hard hearted boss who'd not say "good luck, go and win the lot".

Decent trolling attempt.

Smaller buy in admittedly but G2L and I both made consecutive 3 day comp c2000 runner final tables. Not sure how it would go down if we'd needed to make that phone call for the second time in three months...

I would have thought that asking for a day off the morning of that day (assuming it would have to be, given it would be a late finish on Sunday) wouldn't be acceptable to any company (unless it's some sort of small friendly place where you can come to a pre-arranged agreement with your boss about this kind of situation). It's also got to be pretty difficult to pull a sickie and keep it quiet, given you'll be winning a decent chunk of money on that day and social media etc will almost certainly land you in trouble

Look at it another way. If it was a genuine crisis it would be acceptable in pretty much every company that you would want to work for. This is not a crisis, but neither is it just wanting a lie in because you're hungover.

Surely the GTO move is to make sure you've not got anything you can't get out of on the Monday then pre-warn your boss the week preceding you might need to take a last minute holiday, but it's pretty unlikely and will be a one off. If he says absolutely not then book it as holiday.

Problem with that is if you play once a month, that's a lot of Mondays where you are keeping the diary empty just in case. 

Agree with all of this - however, if you're going to be warning him that you might need last minute holiday on the Monday morning a few times a month, he will be wondering what it's all about.

If it's just a few times a year then it is probably more practical just booking it off.

We could also turn the above point on its head and look at it in the way of - provisionally booking the Monday off, and then coming in if you weren't to get to the FT, can imagine this would be of dependant on how your company runs and how tolerable your Manager(s) are.

I was under the impression we were talking about a rec who plays a big tournament once or maybe twice a year and therefore it is about 100/1 they will need a Monday off to play a final.

For someone who is playing ten or more big tournaments per year, this is not appropriate clearly unless you have a very sympathetic boss.

FWIW I think phoning in sick it the nut worst solution (if you value your job)

Yeah I was under the same impression as Keith that you're only playing once or twice a year. Events you either Sat into or that are close to home etc. Agree that's not at all practical if you're playing one a month.

When we enter a poker tournament we all think we can win it irrespective of the reality. As I work for myself I can have a Monday off with little or no notice but I would not like to jeopardise, however remotely, any contracts I currently have just because I want to play poker.

One further point - I find it is far easier to slope off early on a Friday than it is to rearrange the diary on Monday.

I think this is the point I was trying to allude to in a earlier post, and why it is my preferred model to run from Thurs - Sun. More so with the option of being able to late reg after work in some cases.

My point's have also been very reliant on the tournaments wrapping up at around midnight. Doesn't really stand if they were to be finishing at 5am. Saying this I think I could probably sail through a day at work off no sleep, having won chunks.

Appologies camel if caused offence, wasn't meant to hence the  :)

No worries, was just teasing.

In the 15 years since I gave up work I've been offered 3 really well paid and pretty interesting jobs.

But I prefer my lifestyle than wearing a suit, travelling to work and having to answer to people every day, even if it means I'm considerably worse off :)

Happiness >>>> Money imo.

This a million times over

Any of the jobs non betting?

Not really. One in poker, one in odds compiling and one in client relations (this was the only one which tempted me a bit)

betfair vip manager?  That would be a decent gig i reckon dealing with some of the heavy hitters.  Only firm where you are dealing with shrewdies rather than mugs in that role.  Although that will be changing somewhat now with the sportsbook taking over.

Camel it isn't "the boss" that is the issue, its disrespect for colleagues and disdain for customers.  The biggest surprise to me is that tikay seems to think that sloping off is ok after what he has written in his diary about his work ethic.

 

In a healthy workplace, I'd expect a person who has a chance to win three years wages in one afternoon to have his colleagues funking hard for him!

^ i think this would be the case, if you work for a small to middle size company, but many prob work for big firms where the employee is maybe more or less just a number.
I have been lucky thru my working life, had really good job leaving school, learnt a trade, used that trade in a self employed manner for 20 years, then due to circumstance, changed tact, now work for a friend running small company 4 days a week and things are very flexible, but i know a lot of people who in these 'modern' times that have 'normal' jobs find there is a lot of black and white, and plenty of rules to follow.

Keith, you come across as a bloke who likes to see people be more moral. I take this from you posting in the grimming threads, you are usually the most active poster in those threads too!

But really, how would you react if you was an employer and your employee lied to you? Like them throwing a sickie. Like people said, they could have just took the day off, etc.

Some bosses and firms deserve to be lied to like they are every day without realising it if they couldn't happily give someone a day off in this situation.

This is getting silly.

What do you expect from Arbboy?

Realism in the real world and a two way mutually beneficial arrangement where looking after employees in times like this will lock in their loyalty long term and save smart companies big staff turnover.  

Employment is a two way street. If you are not flexible as a firm you lose your best guys,  you will always retain the losers because no one else wants them similar to nirvana said previously,  sure his posts were a level but I actually agree with them.

Suppose it all comes back to how good you are at your job and whether you know your relative power. Most people here sound like they are workers in communist Russia.

The reality is people will and do lie to their yes men bosses on a daily and weekly basis whilst striving to be the same yes man boss further down the line themselves.  It would be much better to not have to do it but that's the way the world works if you buy into it.

You are utterly clueless Arb.  The valuable employees you talk about are valuable exactly because they don't make stupid life decisions like entering a poker tournament that they can't final without causing people problems.

great point

.

What is stupid about having a weekend hobby which 99% of the time doesn't remotely interfere with your day job, when it does you are winning a life changing amount of money just by asking your boss for a favour once in your 40 year career?

How many problems are really caused? For one day? What if you are sick the same incredibly tough problems occur. How do businesses cope when people are sick? Or their kids have to go to the dentist? People here are talking like the world collapses if one person in a huge organisation can't make it to work on a Monday. How important are all of your jobs? You All sound like £200k a week stockbrokers who can't possibly be replaced for a day

Are you working on an assumption, Argue?

If a manager/Boss gives someone a "day off" then all they are saying to the employee, is that you can walk all over them again. The likelyhood is that the employee might think he/she could get away with it again.

Also, I am not sure for others, but telling people I am a gambler/poker player is simply something I would tell to an employer anyway.

I am always working on the assumption that this would happen once in your working life as I have said from that start.  A one off surely isn't that bad?

You are working on assumption, so you are already incorrect.

I'm working on the fact that it was a regular thing (well semi reg) due to the initial question assuming most comps finish on the Monday.

I actually had this situation when I won the Notts Gala tour. I had finished in Notts very late, couldn't sleep and had work next day. I asked to finish early due to the lack of sleep and immediately regretted it once I saw my bosses face.

Again I don't think it's the actual impact of the day off- it's the long lasting impression it leaves.

Say I needed a weekday off due to the kids or any other reason I got the impression my workplace always used to think it was linked to poker and my lifestyle outside of work. Perception is a HUGE factor at work esp if you're looking to progress.

. But you are being results oriented like your boss.  You know you are a 100/1 to make the final table in these events.  Whatever happens in real life is just chance. You might never make a final table for this to even be an issue.

I'm not being results orientated. I just cannot take the chance no matter how remote the chance is. Which is fine- I just won't play the event. I'm sure the tour operators can live without me

Oh arron!!!! You are Mr results orientated you can be this week with a 7/1 winner,  I was working on expected value not assumption.  Results ftw though!!!! ;D

I suppose being a 7/1 winner is much better than giving rep to someone who is about to grim grim grim!

It is if you forget about all your losers!  Fancy meeting for a beer before the Stoke sw game? I can show you around the billionaire small epl club.  I might even pay for your ticket.

No mate, struggling to trust you. especially after the #redarmi gate.

Good night.

.

You were moaning the tickets were too expensive a minute ago.  I offer to pay and entertain you and you still say no. Shame.  Will have to put up with Wednesday's other blonde fan rutter instead. He won't turn me down.

Hope he dresses up as big bird as usual.

I don't think it is even just a poker thing, it is a lack of notice thing. 

I am never ringing my boss on Monday to let him know I am on my way to the Centre Court at Wimbledon.  It is just wrong in my eyes.  It is absolutely fine having a day off to go to Wimbledon or play poker if I give him/her a week or so's notice.  It isn't fine if I just assume he is OK with it and just go anyway.  I say this as somebody who has employed people, been self employed and been an employee.   If you have something planned, book a day off or an afternoon off.  If you'd been doing extra hours, I may even let you have the afternoon off gratis.   


     

So a friend who has two tickets to see Federer v Nadal in the qtr finals of Wimbledon finds he can't go and offers you the tickets, you don't even contemplate phoning your boss and explaining the chance you've got?

I'd be more scared of pissing off my missus by turning them down than my boss for accepting!

The issue is notice and expectation. I often ask for Friday's off cause I want to play poker, sometimes on the Wednesday/Thursday. I have no issue doing that as A I know I am not busy and if shit drops I can cancel the poker and B my boss is being asked in advance not when it is very difficult to say no.

I would not enjoy a tournament if success equalled an awkward call to work in the morning so I just wouldn't play them. I sometimes do but I would pre book Monday off or book a "Maybe holiday" whereby I say I have something on but if plans change I might be in Monday. I would never enter a comp unless I had this in the bag.

Bottom line if you want to succeed in life, you have to make sensible decisions. If it was for a million quid, perhaps, but for 50k up top and as low as £2-3k hardly seems worth risking your job.

Since realising I can't make a go of poker and cutting it back, my prospects at work have gone up significantly. Sleeping 7 hours, and appearing like you care does help!

It wasn't a level, I find myself mostly in agreement with you on this.

I can't believe how people concern themselves so much with the impression they give - I assume it's fear of losing the job.

Fundamentally, outside perhaps of a philanthropic private organisation, the job of any shareholder driven enterprise is to find a way to fire you or at very best, curb your rewards to a point where you must be being exploited. I'm not really bothered about this but that is the construct. So, people are right to be aware the employer is trying to fire them every day but should develop ways of not caring about this - ie being very employable or better still, in charge of their own destiny

As a result, I have very mixed feelings about loyalty. Because I choose to subscribe to the above nonsense I am happy to work hard when hard work is required and I am happy to give the best input I am capable of in any given situation. I will often work extra hours, quite often pop in on a day off.  But I don't feel remotely loyal in the sense I t think it has been used in this thread - that would be ridiculous. If they walked in tomorrow and asked me to leave I'd collect my pen and be gone in 60 seconds with a 'good game & good bye'

This wins as far as I'm concerned, although I wouldn't suggest for a second Arb is clueless but maybe a little naive in this situation. To give a specific example, I am Head of Chemistry at a private school in the North of England. I'm sure you'll agree that:

1. Parents at the school I work at are paying 30k a year for their's children's education. They have a right to expect their children to be taught by a subject specialist to the highest standard possible.

2. The pupils in my care have a right to have a lesson taught by me and not a non-specialist, cover supervisor.

3. The staff who work for me in my department have a right to have my expertise present to deal with any issues that arise during the day.

4. The Governors and Head who appointed me to to the job have a right to demand professionalism, dedication and focus.

5. My teaching colleagues have a right to concentrate on their own classes and not have to deal with mine.

6. The lab technicians who have spent significant time preparing resources, solutions and equipment for my practical lessons have a right to have their efforts valued by me and the pupils by being used and not left on the side.



I absolutely do not have a right to ask for a day off in term time for poker, certainly not in the morning no matter how much money is at stake. Hence why I would never enter a tournament that finalled on a Monday in term time.

I don't mean to come across as self-righteous or arrogant, but I value my job and care about the success of my pupils.

This is probably the most sensible summary so far.

I've worked in a lot of offices and can honestly say it's not nearly half as big a drama as some people are making out if someone takes a day off with short notice.

Has nobody ever been sick where you work? It just makes that day a bit busier and more stressful.

You don't at all and you are in one of the type of jobs (in the minority of people which i initially said) who realistically can't take a day off like this at short notice. 

As Alan says the vast majority of people on here are creating a massive drama out of something which in a lot of cases (not yours) wouldn't make a great deal of difference to their company or their fellow workers Monday at work.

I guess employees know nothing and the non workers know everything then lol.

I wouldn't say that.  I would say a lot of workers are naturally more risk averse and over estimate the damage something small like this has to their 'rep' at work.

I've managed a few who are both in my time

Anyway, how do you find time for gambling in between all this arguing on the Internet?  :D

Non worker woodsey!  You said it.  Just off to Uttox races for the day.  No holiday needed last minute either.  Phoned the boss up and like the del monte man he said yes!  ;D

The new proposal is cool for recs because we can happily rock up on Sat knowing the chances are we wont make it through the day. If we do it's almost certain we wont make it through Day 2. So the huge majority of the time there wont be a problem and we will simply enjoy a weekend of poker. It's only our illogical optimism which presents the problem. But you've got to implement +EV thinking here right?

On the other point about phoning your boss for a day off...

Fact 1: As a professional business manager your job is to implement +EV strat too, to max the ROI of the business.
Fact 2: In every single job there is a negative affect on ROI by absence. Or why the hell does that job exist in the first place??

You could pick any example. Let's say the one morning chef at a business pulls this stunt? Now suddenly the business can't sell food, it can't operate, the customers are sorely disappointed, reputation damaged, the rest of the team affected, complaints. The list is endless, so where is the win for the business? Sure thing if you're a valued employee and have a decent boss then something can be arranged, it's not the end of the world. But it's not optimum either! If the boss has any kind of professional attitude then trying to imagine he'll be happy to swallow losses to the business whilst you max personal +EV at the gaming tables is a deluded rec attitude to business. There will deffo be a lasting impact in relations and that's not +EV either...so pulling a sickie is the only option....nomatter how uneasy it sits with Tikay....ooohhh me aching back boss!!

My mum got given tickets to go and see Robbie Williams at Wembley a week before the concert, booked off the holiday time, and then had a meeting time changed which she had to attend so she couldn't go. She works for the local council, and much of her job involves meetings etc which she has to attend, and the amount of ballache it would incur to move these meetings around (even if she is actually off sick) is tremendous, if she can physically make it in to work then she will. I don't think she's in a minority here, for people who aren't pro poker players I think they value their job more than their hobbie, and won't enter a tournament on the basis that it's possible they'd have to miss a Monday off work at short notice, because in a risk-reward sense it's not worth risking your job or your reputation etc for a chance at a big poker score, because their career and their families guarunteed long term financial security is more important.

You're just taking an unplanned day's holiday though. People do take holidays.

So what would have happened if she had booked a holiday to Florida which co incided with a change in the date of the meeting?

She would have given up her holiday?

I employ a few people all of whom are free to take a day's leave at short notice if they need it. As an employer you have to be able to react to short notice absences so as a few have said the business will cope and it most certainly won't be the end of the world.

When they get back to work I'll ask them the reason they were absent and depending on the reason I'll make a decision how to record it on their file or even whether to record it at all. I'm such a sympathetic person that they might even get paid if it's a really good reason such as their child taking ill or such like.

In my industry there are ups and downs. We have busy spells and quiet spells and as a result there are inevitable redundancy situations every so often.

Who do you think gets selected for redundancy if I have no choice but to make one of these three excellent employees all doing exactly the job on £50k per year redundant?

Employee 1 - Hard working, highly qualified, impeccable time keeping, high quality of work, zero unexplained absences.
Employee 2 - Hard working, highly qualified, impeccable time keeping, high quality of work, zero unexplained absences.
Employee 3 - Hard working, highly qualified, impeccable time keeping, high quality of work, 2 days off because he made a couple of poker finals last year.

So yes. Go ahead and take that day off without giving me any notice. As long as you're good at your job I'll forgive you and as long as it doesn't happen often you won't face disciplinary action. Just be aware that however minor it may seem, there are circumstances, however unlikely where that day off may have an affect on whether or not you keep your £50k a year job.

(http://img.memecdn.com/Decision-is-easy_c_19223.jpg)

I like this. Probably the best summation so far.

At what point during the weekend are people ringing in to ask for a days holiday?

Assuming Monday morning?

So your boss asks why you are asking for a holiday day when you should already be at your desk, what do you tell him?

Your boss says no, what do you do then?

Pretty surprised at people thinking this isn't a big deal

Yeh but jobs are like buses

'Cheers Mr Evil, it's been good and you seem a fair man, good luck'

Hit the nail on the head!

I would say on the Wednesday before I started playing,

"Guvnor, there's a decent tournament at DTD this weekend, I'm thinking of having a crack, but the final is on Monday. If the 1% chance of making the final 9 comes in, is it ok that I take a day's holiday? I won't bother entering if you need me"

'Thanks for taking this so well mate. Last time I had to lay someone off two weeks before Christmas it was heart wrenching but you've made it almost pleasurable. Fancy a pint?'

Who needs zero hours contracts when it's this easy to employ and lay off.

"Yeah sounds perfectly reasonable mate. In return is it okay if next time we have a job cancelled at short notice I just send you home for a day and not pay you?"

I do understand that, for a lot of people, losing a job would be tough and could cause them a certain amount of first world hardship. For those people it obviously makes no sense to jeopardise their job for something as trivial as poker. I also think it's the most debilitating fear of the various fears that certain people like to create in the gen pop.

Maybe I'm too optimistic but I just don't worry about losing my job - I can identify with it to a degree of course as I had a few years in my twenties where job security was a concern to me and decided I wouldn't take that ticket.

By the way, I wouldn't actively cause a problem for my employer if I could help it as I do think it is unprofessional. Sure we could have a poll about which torney structure suits you best but the rest of the convo feels a bit meaningless for the personal circs reasons people have alluded to - we're all in different spots.

Most people do seem a tad wimpy, servile and grateful their employer has them - this is bad for the soul.

That's the adult way to approach it. But it isn't what the debate has been about.

If that was your answer, I wouldn't play.

Brilliant!

It's nothing more than just basic, common respect. Your boss should be able to come in knowing whether you are expected to attend.

I'd prefer to book a Friday that I know I need off than a Monday I know I probably don't need off.

It has for most people. Granted not for everyone.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear, but IMO much of the debate has been about whether 'bosses' would give you a day off at short notice to play poker.
Keith's suggestion isn't about that.

give me a good old fashioned 2 day comp any day of the week
even fri/sat day 1 and day 2 on a sunday to a finish

just not monday!

You don't need to apologise, your point was perfectly clear, I can't understand how Alun can't distinguish between someone planning in advance, checking their diary to be sure that they don't have anything vital on the day and someone just phoning up at 8.30 and saying "it's like this".  (Of course Nirvana thinks there isn't a difference)

Pretty certain I don't think that

well you don't seem to think that there is any difference between the consequences of either scenario.

I think I've said already it's all a bit too personal to ones own circumstances to judge really.

I would almost certainly tip people off that I may need to take Monday and I would make sure I wouldn't let anyone down by being absent. That's just courtesy obviously. Equally, I think I could just call on the Monday and there would be no consequences - but that's my situation- I wouldn't advise anyone else how they should behave.

In parallel to the main thrust of this thread, I have been having a separate discussion with myself about other things that I don't quite recall at the moment.

I do agree he doesn't need to apologise. But I appreciated him clarifying even if you didn't. I actually made basically the same point earlier in the thread, and (probably incorrectly) assumed most people in the phone in a last minute holiday camp thought in a similar way to me.

I can understand that you didn't read my post before having a pop at me though :)

Had exactly this scenario for a UKIPT FT in Dublin couple of years back...
Mentioned it to the Boss before I went and said extremely unlikely, but would it be ok to call you on Sunday night to book Monday off, should the unlikely happen?
He said barring the plague striking in the rest of the team, yes that would be ok.
I phone him on the Sunday, tell him what is at stake, how grateful id be and that i would take out all the Team for lunch on the Tues.
He totally understood and wished me luck (think the majority of bosses in larger companies would).
Obviously I get set over setted to get knocked out first on the FT and  then stand the team lunch!
If it wasn't for bad luck, Id have no luck!!

I can as well it being late on a Friday and emotion and tiredness being clearly evident  ;busted; 

One of the Teaching Assistants at Mrs 3103's school took an official Monday off today to accommodate her flight back from taking her half-term holiday in America.
She then sent a text at around 6pm to say that her flight from Heathrow to Leeds had been cancelled due to fog and they were on a bus.
At just after eight she announced that she was home but would like another leave of absence day to overcome the jet lag...

That has gone down like a fart in a lift.

Will she get fined.

She won't get paid.

That goes without saying but will she get fined?.

Rob reaction to the overlay:

"The WPT 500 got 1613 runners, almost 400 short of the Wpt wanted to run the WPT 500 into the WPT Main Event this year to cut down on expenses for players who wanted to play both. We have got our biggest numbers running UKIPTs into a Monday for final table so I thought having day 1s on Sat and Sun would be popular and offset any losses in players who couldn't take mon-tue off V thu Fri. However - the maths from the data is simple. - 2014 475 re-entries out of 2133 runners, this time - zero. We also qualified 100 less players as we didn't do the WPT 125 weekends at club beforehand. We had 1000 DTD players per day on I poker - we have 600-800 on partypoker. Add these factors up with no uplift in unique players and you get 400 short on numbers and sat overlays. I'd love the reasons to be times / scheduling as that's such as easy fix - but that's wishful thinking I'm afraid. Clearly my decision to change to no re-entry has backfired on last 2 big events at club - same uniques but less money in prizepool. In terms of more DTD online to play sats - that's heading in right direction and is going up + 100 per day each month we are on partypoker - so that will solve itself in time for the next big event - UKPC. In terms of asking for feedback - in all my life I have never known a business like DTD that listens to players - sometimes to our detriment. options are lower GTEs or get more DTD players into PP to qualify more players. My error was to think we would get an uplift in unique players to offset re-entries and that didn't happen, we just got the same players as last year, so clearly you don't get any more players by trying to make the experience fairer, probably because that's just how big the market is at £500, we have maxed it out. At £1M you need to qualify 1000 unique players or pad the prizepool with re-entries from the wealthier players - or drop the GTE of course.

So after all that the answer was it makes sod all difference? Brilliant.

Using my memory I seem to think the only two things that ever seem to make a big difference are a) mainstream TV coverage and b) PokerStars satellites

Well it's stopping re-entries that have fked it he reckons.

Ppl complain about it but still play anyway.

Bring them back I say, stopping them clearly don't increase uniques.

Yeah as his target punter I'm minded to agree. I don't really care that much and gives me something to whinge about when I get knocked out.

Or just swallow your ego/pride and lower the unachievable guarantees? I really dont think the "big numbers" attract many more players than would play already especially in the £500-£1000 buyin range (i think the big numbers are good ideas for things like the grand prix and stuff) but I think if you slap a £500k/750k guarantee on the WPT500 (which is still bigger than usual weekly/monthly guarantees) and do all the online satellite work etc youre already doing you still get roughly the same number of runners as you do with a £1m gte.

I cringe everytime I see a post on here or on facebook about overlay and then a follow up moaning at community/feeling sorry for yourselves for not reaching the guarantee when in alot of cases I really think the guarantee is unachievable before youve even started. Overlays are happening on a regular occurance, maybe its time to wake up and smell the coffee instead of just setting money on fire?

A lot of people will always play when you give away hundreds of seats in Sats with big overlays to make the uniques look the same alongside forcing all your low stakes regs who have cashed in any comp in the last three months to play an event they probably don't want to with part of their winnings.  Giving away hundreds of seats because overlays are going to be huge means certain people will still play even though they don't like re entries because they are value whores even though any added money they get from the overlay is usually just eaten up in exes so they are no better off and they are potentially tied into more multi day exes/days off work if they top 50 because they are then forced to play a five day £2200 event.  

It is like a Ponzi scheme where you have to reach the top (ie cash the £2200 main event to ever fully realise your profit in full in cash without getting more and more expensive seats to play at every step on the ladder against harder and harder players to beat who you would never choose to play unless you were forced to) which for a standard reg is virtually impossible and highly time consuming in the real world.  Rob doesn't lose out in rake because of the overlays in the sats are lower and the rake for every seat is actually paid in full rather than being subsided by the big sat overlays to reach an impossible gtd.

Therefore the majority of the field are forced to play one way or the other whether there are re entries or not IMO therefore the number of uniques will never actually vary that much IMO.

Pretty much this.

For the first few years, every time Rob sent out the rallying call to drum up players to try and make a guarantee, I duly dropped everything if I could and made the journey to play.

Now, as it seems like every time there's a big festival people are being implored to play, I pretty much ignore it.

If I was planning on coming to DTD, I'll still come. But I won't make a special effort. It feels like I'm getting the blame for DTDs decision to make the huge guarantee.

I don't think any extra people play because there is a headline £1m guarantee, £500k is still more than enough to play for.

I would much rather DTD lower their guarantees than allowed re entries again.

I massively applauded Rob's decision to stop re entries, I think that was a tremendous move for the good of poker.

two excellent posts

I thought re-entries were allowed just not in to the same day?

+1. Good post Camel.

2 sentences that I totally agree with.

Yep.

A yep that I totally agree with.

Right, but did any of you enter the tournament?

This forum and the Facebook community group was just about in favour of scrapping re-entry. Yet clearly those people didn't play anyway.

So can see why Rob is tearing his hair out.

Probably couldn't phone the boss up every day this week last minute to get multiple days off work after binking a £2200 seat for a 5 day event which isn't transferable after cashing in the £500 freezeout event having already taken Monday and Tues off as holiday this week so decided against playing the £500.  That was my reason for not playing the £500 event anyway.

I only play on a weekend when I don't need time off work. And that is why I didn't support this event. 5 days is a no no for me. If I'm going to book 5 days off work i'd rather spend it with my family and not a bunch of poker players :)

Congrats on 5000th post bob!

I gave this free, coulda charged £50k and both me and DTD would feel pretty farking good right now

Thanks Arb. Wish it was more profound :)

Building something new will take time and I'd be wary about drawing firm conclusions from one weekend. Mad how you poker players insist it's all about the long term but get all swingy swongy after a single event.

I think most of this forum and the facebook community were more concerned about the 40 bullets you could fire at the £70 grand prix rather than an extra shot or two at a £550 buy in WPT.

My reason for not wanting to play this one was nothing to do with how many entries you could have. It was the Monday/Tuesday days 2 and 3 that meant I didn't even attempt to win a seat via the excellent satellite programme.

As it happened I did play but only because I was forced to by virtue of a seat which was included within a prize pool.

I didn't play because the cost of travelling and getting a hotel room is unjustifiable for a £500 event.

Basically makes it a £800 event if I'm staying for 2 nights and I would be fooling myself if I thought I had a 1.6 edge on the field.

U could've stayed one night and played 4 flights. Make day two book another, seems very economical to me. Esp if you played cash and sats if you bust early.

Are you saying that only those who are playing the event should be allowed an opinion?

Of course not, but it should be taken with a pinch of salt. It's like a chef asking a vegetarian whether there should be pork or lamb on the menu.

I don't agree.

For a start, just because I didn't play this competition doesn't mean I will never play any competition, so your vegetarian analogy doesn't work.

Even if I never play again, I still understand the issues, so why should my opinion be taken with a pinch of salt? That sounds like a euphemism for "Not valid" to me.

More like the chef asking a vegetarian about what he can put on the menu to attract him to his restaurant.
I was a frequent visitor to DTD for a fair few years. It's not just the re-entry issue that has stopped me lately, but it was significant and I am now out of the routine/habit. The changes make me more inclined to get back in the swing, but it was never going to be an instant response.

Think what Alex is saying is that most who have an opinion on re entries aren't now supporting the club and perhaps don't speak for those who were actually voting with their pocket and re entering.

I didn't play this comp due to mon day 2 tues day 3. A bizarre decision. Let's make it a level playing field by banning same day re entry but then make it inaccessible for a huge % of people who work for a living at a time of year when most probably don't have much annual leave left.

And +1 on the guarantee. It really doesn't make a difference whether this gte is a million or 500k. I wonder how much money was done in satties too?

Offer a sensible guarantee and even add money to the final 9 if u want to attract players?

The people who were re-entering were doing it to support the club? Really? How very altruistic of them.

Agree with the thoughts on Monday Tuesday issue and on the guarantees.

Sounds like Rob and the WPT need to make their flagship comp a 2 day freezeout, with day 1 Saturday, day 2 Sunday, fantastic structure, but must be finished by midnight, no re-entry, minimal late reg, with an easily achievable guarantee  ;dingdell;

The Monday &Tuesday scenario has definitely put people off. Obviously by the looks of this thread, it needs to be tweaked.

The re-entry argument can go on for many days, but surely the middle ground would surely be just to allow one single re-entry?

Not at all. You are viewing this from a totally different perspective from those who have a life outside of poker.

There is a need to accept that the flagship events won't attract as many recreational players if they extend beyond the weekend. What's wrong with tournaments ending on Sunday night?
There seems to be a consensus among the posters that planning Thursday and/or Friday as holiday is far easier than discovering, late on Sunday night, that you need to take Monday, and possibly Tuesday off.

Agree and if you run online day1's as well, you are going to keep the vast amount of potential players happy.

All I'm saying is Alex there's a contradiction in aims if you're trying to level the playing field for non pros but then holding your Comps over weekdays.

Obviously if your target market is pros it doesn't matter

What do people think about running a comp like the WPT over two weekends? Say 1A Friday, 1B & 1C Saturday (afternoon & eve) 1D & 1E Sunday, 1F the following Thursday eve and 1G on the Friday eve, then Day 2 Saturday, Day 3 Sunday, FT Monday? Players who are travelling from a long way away can just play the last day 1 and stay the weekend, knowing if they have to free up Monday it will definitely be worth it. Others could come down for the 1st weekend and come back the following weekend for day 2/3 etc. Could run day 1s throughout the week, or keep mon-thurs for smaller sides.

Can't really think of a way of making a 3+ day comp not run into a weekday one way or another.

Robs data just doesn't support this theory George

And David saying: There is a need to accept (horribly patronising language btw) that the flagship events won't attract as many recreational players if they extend beyond the weekend"

Rob:

 "We have got our biggest numbers running UKIPTs into a Monday for final table so I thought having day 1s on Sat and Sun would be popular and offset any losses in players who couldn't take mon-tue off V thu Fri. "

" I'd love the reasons to be times / scheduling as that's such as easy fix - but that's wishful thinking I'm afraid"

Is there not quite a big difference between a Monday final table as you've quoted about the UKIPT's huge fields and the WPT500 where day 2 was Monday and still 50 players making the final day on the Tuesday. If you're only having to make last minute work plans based on making a final table of a big live tournament I wouldn't have thought it would put a lot of people off. If you're having to take a day off for making day 2 (and likely not even cashing) and a further day off on the Tuesday if you reach the final 50 (still not locking up a huge cash, but certainly nothing to sniff at) then I can undestand anyone in full time employment being unwilling to take all that time off with such a minimal chance of it being en route to a life-changing cash.

Toms right. Huge difference between running a final table on a Monday than having to play both Monday and possibly Tuesday. Just isn't feasible for people who have jobs which is fine if the WPT is aimed at pros but not if you're trying to create a level playing field for all.

Robs data may be looking at it in terms of re entry but you can't get enough re entries if u don't attract enough unique entries in the first place.

Pros want recs in the field, but want long, 3 to 4 day structures.

Can't have your cake and eat it.

Surely there's a middle ground here?

I'm just going on what Rob has said since he's best placed to judge. If it was an easy fix with the scheduling then that'd be easy.  This is getting like the football threads.

The obvious factor everyone seems to be ignoring..

Poker is declining in popularity.

is an issue that structures are too long anyway?

shorten clocks, lower starting stacks, chop a day (or more) off the tournament

Pros can have the extra time for online and/or live cash

Recs less time off work


or would this be seen as generally not "value for money"

isn't there at some point going to be a reaction (adverse) to sitting at a poker table for 10 hours a day for 5 days to win a festival type major tournament?

Recs want Saturday start Sunday finish, but also want good structures, and big prizepools (they just do whatever ppl might say, no point arguing that a £1m gte gets the same runners as a £200k gte)

They also can't have their cake and eat it too

They've done big gtes good structures without it running mon and tues before. What's changed?

I also think if they hadn't qualified so many people there would've missed the guarantee by a few more than they did

@tighty

The wpt500 structure was perfect imo, too short if anything. 40 min clock until 60 min final. 3 days, 50 players back for day 3 and it was over by 8pm roughly. Surely no-one wants a £1m gte comp to be squeezed into two days?

Agree it would be far better to have day 2 Saturday day 3 Sunday or as a compromise day 2 Sunday day 3 monday

Does sarcasm make a better argument than patronisation?

i think from reading Rob's comments that the WPT/PP crew wanted the 500 to run straight into the main

i also think, ref the camel's polint, that the size of the market is what it is in terms of attracting uniques. it might rise a bit or fall a bit but there simply aren't a few hundred extra people to pay £550 let alone £2200 to boost the numbers, though i gather that the flow through from Malta to Nottingham was less than anticipated this year 

Sarcasm is a form of wit, albeit a pretty low grade one. So yes, imo of course.

And is your opinion to be taken with a pinch of salt, or is that just reserved for mine?

 ;indestructable;

I'll take one day if you have it

Should read "expects" :D

You can take it with a pinch of anything you like

In all seriousness when it comes to recs the ideal structure is probably slow for first 5-6 levels then turbo. I'd argue most amateur players will make the biggest mistakes (and have the least fun) in the 20-50BB 20-40BB range in tournaments.

edit: range was too wide before

Victoria's arse it is then.  :P

Fri 1A - Noon - 9pm (pros and day offers)
Fri 1B - 6pm - 3am (busted pros, day offers and locals)
Sat 1C - 11am - 145pm (turbo) (tilted individuals listed above)
Sat Day 2 - 2pm - midnight
Sun Day 3 - Noon - close

Problem solved, non?

Something like this is the best if all tournaments must have the same scheduling.

Surely it's ok to occasionally have a Monday/Tuesday finish, and it make sense in this case with the WPT Main starting on the Wednesday. Yes this means some people can't play, but plenty of other tournaments to choose from.

Agree largely with comments about the guarantee - if this WPT500 had a £750k guarantee it would be considered a success.

What I would change though is the 'must play' seats as part of the prizepool. Not only do recs need to have the Monday/Tuesday available to play, but also the rest of the week if they make the top 50. Can understand why DTD want to have seats to the next event as part of the prizepool, but I think everyone should have the option of receiving the equivalent amount of tournament credit instead.

can't the final table be the week after on the saturday? everybody gets paid the minimum cash and then comes back well prepared, rested and ready to rumble

Plus you could ensure you get your mates down to rail, make it a quality atmosphere for the stream too?

Great idea

What do other people think of this point with respect to live poker - seems an interesting point to me.

At the local bowl level, that I still enjoy weekly, the rooms seem as well attended as ever.

Don't know if I'm typical though in the sense I won't travel to play larger comps any more as I've come to realise I'm shiz but still like to roffle around locally

Everyone should 100% have the option to be paid in cash in full when they bet in cash and win. If i have a £500 cash bet (the same as turning up to DTD to pay into the wpt £500 in cash which numerous punters do) on a 10/1 horse i don't get paid £4k in cash and £1k in betting vouchers which i must use in one bet and one bet only on a future race which the bookmaker decides and i have no say at all over how i can spend the £1k i have won.  I get paid £5000 in profit in cash and i have the 100% say on how i spend/reinvest that money i have won.  That is effectively what these seats being taking out of the prize pool are.  When you look at it like this i am amazed it actually isn't against gambling commission rules to pay out like this.

Agree with Arb.

If they want people to reinvest their winnings in another tournament maybe give them an option of entering with a small discount if they do it immediately.

Recs won't be happy if they cash in a big tournament and lose a proportion of their winnings being forced to play a tournament they don't want to play.

I am officially a rec now!  ty camel.

An amazing amount of recs i have spoke to since the seats started think they are ADDED to the prizepool.  I think if some people who thought this knew the truth then more of a big deal would be made of it.  The vast majority of recs never get a decent % of their prize returned to them in a forced seat so they don't find out the truth behind this policy.  They keep playing mtt's thinking seats are added to the prize pool because they either a) never win them or b) even if they do win them they don't realise they are taken out of the cash prizepool and converted to seats (including another 10% rake for dtd)

exactly yeh, i guess the downsides is that people could collude..

The terms and conditions plus the payouts /seats of the tournament are there for everybody to view beforehand , whilst I agree some people wont be aware of how the added seats are sourced nobody is forcing  people to hand over their money

I'm not sure there is clear evidence to suggest much of a decline in Live poker.

I agree.  I just don't think the GC would take too kindly to gambling at higher stakes being forced in this manner under social responsibility.  Ie you bet at a certain level then are forced to have a bet in another event at a much higher stake (with a bigger margin against you as well because the event is tougher) if you win without having any say in it other than simply not play the original event to avoid it happening.

I seem to be the only person who seems to care about this though so i won't keep banging the drum.  I have made my point.  I will just vote with my feet.

Arb, i get your point but you do keep banging the drum, punters have to read the small print when they bet, no matter what its on.
i bet a horse in the charlie hall ew last week on the fri , for the sat went  from 8 + runners to 7 overnight, mine was 3rd, not ante post- rules my bad.
agree its a tough one to solve to make all happy.

Not remotely the same example.  I am talking about betting in cash and getting paid out in full in cash (not tokens for events in the future you might not want to bet on but the bookie insists you must bet on if you win your first bet).  That is the main point of my argument here.  Non runners in horse races don't change the fact that you will get paid out in cash in full when/if you win on said horse race.

Or get training from Phil Hellmuth  :)

Yes i understand you want to pay in cash and get paid out the full amount in cash,my reply was to try and illustrate that if the rules were read before hand  we would understand that we wont in fact get paid out in full.

Saturated market, as opposed to the game being in decline?

Seeing as this has become the "why didn't the WPT 500 make the guarantee" thread here's another possibility.

Maybe people don't like being paid out to their Party Poker account rather than in cash?

Having seen how much you lose on the conversion I can understand why as well.

Apparently a £2750 cash gets you $4236.35

If you cash out today you get £2681.25

£69 disappearing in to the atmosphere just like that.........