blonde poker forum
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
March 29, 2024, 07:11:47 AM

Login with username, password and session length
Search:     Advanced search
2272476 Posts in 66752 Topics by 16945 Members
Latest Member: Zula
* Home Help Arcade Search Calendar Guidelines Login Register
+  blonde poker forum
|-+  Poker Forums
| |-+  Poker Hand Analysis
| | |-+  Hand of the week 16th April
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. « previous next »
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] Go Down Print
Author Topic: Hand of the week 16th April  (Read 7156 times)
JungleCat03
Insidious underminer
Learning Centre Group
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4270



View Profile WWW
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2007, 10:46:07 AM »

I don't really get why raising preflop is considered a good play here?

Surely creating big pots oop with marginal hands against aggressive opponents is the way to bleed chips pretty fast....

If your opponent was very weak tight then raising could be ok as you should be able to understand what he holds more easily.

I'd say it would be far superior to raise with a hand like 67s or 9Ts as your later decisions in the hand are likely to be more cut and dried and less likely to land you in hot water and you disguise your hand.

The only way to disguise a raggy ace is to limp with it. As a result I like the limp preflop too as it controls pot size and gives the ace some disguise.

I don't know if the river action is described somewhere? If it went check check then it could be argued Thang played the hand well by getting his chips in ahead on every street despite being OOP. Of course there's always the chance he would've got blown off the pot on the river if Peter had missed.
Logged

"In darker days Jason Robinson found God. But that was after God found Jason Robinson."
boldie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22416


Don't make me mad


View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2007, 11:27:29 AM »

what happened to this week's hand of the week?
Logged

Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2007, 04:04:54 PM »

Yeah where is the next one?

I thought this thread was really interesting. It shows the very different attitudes that exist between players.

For instance this train of thought is a world apart from how I think. Not knocking it of course.

Quote
I don't really get why raising preflop is considered a good play here?
I raise pre-flop because I feel I have the best hand. A correct assumption in fact. So why not raise with the best hand and take the initiative here, particularly when you are going to be oop throughout the hand?

Quote
Surely creating big pots oop with marginal hands against aggressive opponents is the way to bleed chips pretty fast....
I am not necessarily looking to create a big pot. I am giving myself a chance to win the pot right now. I am asking whether my opponent wants to play against me with a weaker hand. Does Peter want to call a raise with his Q-7? If he doesn't...I win the hand. If he does...let's go.

Quote
I like the limp preflop too as it controls pot size
I just can't see how you limping pre-flop is controlling the size of the pot. As soon as you limp your opponent is in total control of the size of the pot. If I was the BB in this hand, same conditions, chips etc...I raise your limp. So now I control the pot size. Are you calling my raise oop? If the BB checks it is he who has decided to keep the pot small not you.

If Peter does call then my raise pre-flop has set up my post-flop continuation bet. Is my opponent going to remain interested in the hand on the flop with Q-7? I personally don't think so. So if I didn't win the hand pre-flop I win the hand on the flop. Not raising means missing 2 chances to win a hand that Thang lost. That is why I raise.

Quote
The only way to disguise a raggy ace is to limp with it
I don't think a raggy ace is strong enough to disguise. E.g. He raises you fold.

Quote
it could be argued Thang played the hand well
I said in my posts that he played the hand poorly and would probably get outdrawn on the river....he got outdrawn on the river.

So although I don't agree with this post I still found it interesting. More importantly I have put the reasons why I don't agree.




Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
NoflopsHomer
Malcontent
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 20207


Enchantment? Enchantment!


View Profile
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2007, 04:15:19 PM »

what happened to this week's hand of the week?

Sorry Boldie, with Snoopy and I both doing updates over the course of the week, we've not had time, I'm sorting out one for next week though.

Anyway here's my own personal reasons why I think both players did what they did, not saying I agree though:

I think Thang limps with the intention of re-raising, mainly because if he raises and gets re-raised he's stuck. Eicchardt merely switches gears and slows down, when the flop comes Thang bets because otherwise Eicchardt will bet and Thang will lose the initiative, Eicchardt calls, I believe, just bluff any card on the turn because if Thang has any piece of the flop then any turn card is a bad card for him. Thang hits the turn and check/calls because he thinks he has the best hand but still can't bet it and is scared of the gutshot, whereas Eicchardt follows through with his (now semi-) bluff. The river hits Eicchardt and now he has a hand good enough for showdown, obviously if he missed he'd have probably fired another bullet.
Logged

boldie
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22416


Don't make me mad


View Profile WWW
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2007, 06:39:50 PM »

what happened to this week's hand of the week?

Sorry Boldie, with Snoopy and I both doing updates over the course of the week, we've not had time, I'm sorting out one for next week though.


No worries mate...just that we really enjoy hands like this to analyze...some proper thinking to be done abnd interesting opinions to read.
Logged

Give a man a gun and he can rob a bank, give a man a bank and he can rob the world.
JungleCat03
Insidious underminer
Learning Centre Group
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 4270



View Profile WWW
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2007, 07:26:22 PM »

Yeah where is the next one?

I thought this thread was really interesting. It shows the very different attitudes that exist between players.

For instance this train of thought is a world apart from how I think. Not knocking it of course.

I don't really get why raising preflop is considered a good play here?

I raise pre-flop because I feel I have the best hand. A correct assumption in fact. So why not raise with the best hand and take the initiative here, particularly when you are going to be oop throughout the hand?


Yes you have the slight best of it. Could be argued that position negates the small % you are favourite here but fair enough you are ahead preflop.

Quote
Surely creating big pots oop with marginal hands against aggressive opponents is the way to bleed chips pretty fast....
I am not necessarily looking to create a big pot. I am giving myself a chance to win the pot right now. I am asking whether my opponent wants to play against me with a weaker hand. Does Peter want to call a raise with his Q-7? If he doesn't...I win the hand. If he does...let's go.

Laggy scandinavian calling raise with weaker hand hoping to outplay your hand with position? I agree unlikely. He's most likely waiting for aces.............. Smiley 

By raising you are increasing the pot size. I could go into details about why, using citations from maths texts concerning the execution of various mathematical operators. To cut a long, probably hideously dull story short though, I'll leave it with 2*2=4.

The size of the pot on future streets is a function of activity on earlier streets. This CAN result in checking creating a LARGER pot by the river, for instance a check may encourage an opponent to fire 2 bullets rather than one at a pot. In general though, creating a larger pot preflop and on the flop will result in a significantly larger pot by the river as bet sizes will also increase. If a pot is 10k preflop, the size of the pot by the river will generally be smaller than if the pot is 20k preflop.




Quote
I like the limp preflop too as it controls pot size
I just can't see how you limping pre-flop is controlling the size of the pot. As soon as you limp your opponent is in total control of the size of the pot. If I was the BB in this hand, same conditions, chips etc...I raise your limp. So now I control the pot size. Are you calling my raise oop? If the BB checks it is he who has decided to keep the pot small not you.


Yes, being in position offers you a much better opportunity to control pot size, that's life in poker. It goes to show how important position is. Using tools like the check raise, slowplay and small lead/ 3bet are ways to counter it but there's no denying a good player has a big advantage in position.

So you raise if I limp....Position raise.... When i spot you breaking your Oreo without putting it to your ear, I check raise you allin and you pay the stupid cat his money. ..

This is hypothetical. Maybe I limped to exploit a position raise by cr'ing, maybe I limped to play possum only to make a play at a later hand.

There are different reasons to limp in blind situations that don't necessarily mean weakness. But as a general rule you extend pot control and with marginal hands with some sort of strength, I like it as you disguise the hand.

Being results-orientated is not a good way to analyse hands(see later) but you'll notice this aggressive opponent didn't raise here, so the pot was kept small with a marginal hand. Hmmm interesting.....

Quote
If Peter does call then my raise pre-flop has set up my post-flop continuation bet. Is my opponent going to remain interested in the hand on the flop with Q-7? I personally don't think so. So if I didn't win the hand pre-flop I win the hand on the flop. Not raising means missing 2 chances to win a hand that Thang lost. That is why I raise.

Right, so raising preflop and continuation betting a random board is keeping the pot small?

By the time you continuation bet the flop, a half pot bet to full pot bet  is 40-75k. This is a decent proportion of your chips that you are now putting in blind. If called you will be playing for the bulk of your stack most likely if you bet on future streets.

"Is my opponent going to remain interested in the hand on the flop with Q-7?"
It's a good read that he has Q7! Wow, it's almost like you could see his hand already.... Give my regards to Lois Lane and Lex Luther. I hope you use your x-ray vision for good though and not just to look down Jennifer Tilley's top.

You don't know his hand. It is almost random. You are betting a large % of your stack with little or no information on his hand.

By raising preflop you have a situation where you stick a large amount of chips in blind out of position, with possibly the best hand, yet one where you can be blown off without knowing where you are.

Against a weaker opponent then raising is probably not so bad as you pick up the pot much more often preflop and he is  less likely to play back at you so your decisions are more cut and dried.

Quote
The only way to disguise a raggy ace is to limp with it
I don't think a raggy ace is strong enough to disguise. E.g. He raises you fold.

You increase the strength of a marginal hand by disguising the situation when an ace flops as you now have a relatively STRONG hand  yet one he will be less likely to beleive and more likely to put chips in,  in bad shape.

Quote
it could be argued Thang played the hand well
I said in my posts that he played the hand poorly and would probably get outdrawn on the river....he got outdrawn on the river.
 

Cool. I'm surprised you don't win the lottery every week with this insight. I guess you spread them out a bit so no one gets suspicious. Now that's good thinking sir!

You don't know the river card till it comes out. Being outdrawn is not necessarily a bad thing in poker and certainly not a guarenteed mark of poor play. Usually the reverse in fact.

Quote

So although I don't agree with this post I still found it interesting. More importantly I have put the reasons why I don't agree.

Fair enough! Me too Smiley

Good thread though i must say.




Logged

"In darker days Jason Robinson found God. But that was after God found Jason Robinson."
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #51 on: April 26, 2007, 01:08:15 AM »

Fair play for the re-post JungleCat. I appreciate the time taken to respond in a comprehensive manner.

I have my thoughts and explained them fully and you have your thoughts that are completely different but have also explained them fully. That's a pretty good poker forum thread right there.

To avoid arguement I wont dispute the superhero tag you give me.

I am tying my actions into the actual holding of Q-7 now that it has been revealed, this is true, but I did demonstrate how I would play the hand before I knew this. And nothing changed. So I played the hand out fine in my eyes (x-ray or not)

Good Luck
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: April 26, 2007, 04:07:15 PM »

I have just re-read this thread and think that the range of views that exist amongst different types of players is very interesting.

I advocated raising pre-flop and after digesting everything I stand by this play.

This is why....

A number of players resist raising because of the LAG Scandinavian in the BB, his chip power and position. But I think that the equation...Laggy Scandy + Big Stack + Position = Will Play Back At You...is too simplistic for me to accept. If you take this view then you are not giving your opponent credit for having any depth of thought other than "I am a laggy scandie and it is my job to outplay you every hand".

When I set about analysing this hand I didn't think about what THANG SHOULD DO I imagined what I WOULD DO. I am a TAG player. So I have spent the day playing a select number of hands strongly. It has not been easy to knock me off a pot and I have always shown down strength when I have pressed a hand. Short-handed play is ideal territory for me and I am now intent on capitalising on my TAG image.

The reasons why some people are cautious here e.g. Short-handed, Laggy Scandanavian opponent with chips, Final Table Bubble, Poor Position etc....are THE VERY REASONS I CHOOSE TO RAISE. I hold the view that my opponent will consider these factors and wonder why this TAG is raising into him at this point. He wont just play back at me because he comes from Scandanavia. He will deduce that I am raising with a genuine hand and a hand that I think is worth raising with IN SPITE of the circumstances. In addition I suggested raising 36K. So I am not pushing him out of the pot I am inviting him into it. Why is this TAG doing this here?? He looks down to see a random hand...let's say Q-7. I just don't accept that he is going to want to play silly buggers here. If he re-raises pre-flop he is all too aware that he could be facing an all-in from a player that pushes strength. Does he want to take that risk? He also knows that I know he is a LAG. If he does call with his unpromising hand this TAG IS going to bet the flop...that's for certain. Is he going to play back at this TAG on the flop with his Q-7?

Although I respect my opponent and appreciate his style of play I give him credit for having similar thoughts about me.

When we get into these short-handed bubble situations the TAG has a powerful table image to exploit. Importantly, the fewer players at the table, the less relevant cards become. It becomes more a battle of wills. If he doesn't respect my bets after seeing my play throughout the day then he IS going to be doing his chips to me sooner or later, that's for certain. BUT HE DOES KNOW THAT. So IMO he will just walk away pre-flop or on the flop and look for a better spot.

Short-handed you must impose your style and your will on your opponent rather than fearing what he is capable of. Let him fear what you are capable of. Just because he comes from Scandie Land doesn't mean I am going to be licking his balls during this session and giving him a free walk every five hands.

FACT - TAG's raise with strength.

FACT - This TAG thought he had the best hand here. CORRECT.

The LAG would do well to remember that.
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
Royal Flush
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22972


Booooccccceeeeeee


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: April 26, 2007, 04:30:46 PM »

If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand in position, you raise i call the flop comes bricks i can almost always get you off it.
Logged

[19:44:40] Oracle: WE'RE ALL GOING ON A SPANISH HOLIDAY! TRIGGS STABLES SHIT!
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: April 26, 2007, 07:45:56 PM »

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush 
If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand in position, you raise i call the flop comes bricks i can almost always get you off it.

Quote
Posted by: MANTIS01
If he doesn't respect my bets after seeing my play throughout the day then he IS going to be doing his chips to me sooner or later, that's for certain.
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
Royal Flush
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22972


Booooccccceeeeeee


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: April 26, 2007, 07:56:23 PM »

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush 
If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand in position, you raise i call the flop comes bricks i can almost always get you off it.

Quote
Posted by: MANTIS01
If he doesn't respect my bets after seeing my play throughout the day then he IS going to be doing his chips to me sooner or later, that's for certain.

So you make it 36k, i make it 90k, you are going to Jam with A5? No you pass and wait to 'trap me' by then i have taken 200k off you and end up doing 90k back to you....
Logged

[19:44:40] Oracle: WE'RE ALL GOING ON A SPANISH HOLIDAY! TRIGGS STABLES SHIT!
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #56 on: April 26, 2007, 08:27:30 PM »

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush 
If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand in position, you raise i call

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush
So you make it 36k, i make it 90k

Nothing I like more than an opponent who doesn't know whether he's coming or going

Next.
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
Royal Flush
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22972


Booooccccceeeeeee


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: April 26, 2007, 08:36:33 PM »

I won't always do the same thing every hand.

With the stacks the way they are i am 100% not folding, probably calling about 70% with Q7 and re-raising 30%
Logged

[19:44:40] Oracle: WE'RE ALL GOING ON A SPANISH HOLIDAY! TRIGGS STABLES SHIT!
MANTIS01
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6730


What kind of fuckery is this?


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2007, 12:25:46 AM »

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush 
If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush
With the stacks the way they are i am 100% not folding

Surely this level of uncertainty is not good for your game.
Logged

Tikay - "He has a proven track record in business, he is articulate, intelligent, & presents his cases well"

Claw75 - "Mantis is not only a blonde legend he's also very easy on the eye"

Outragous76 - "a really nice certainly intelligent guy"

taximan007 & Girgy85 & Celtic & Laxie - <3 Mantis
Royal Flush
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 22972


Booooccccceeeeeee


View Profile
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2007, 01:00:50 AM »

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush 
If the SB is a tag i am MORE likely to play this hand

Quote
Posted by: Royal Flush
With the stacks the way they are i am 100% not folding

Surely this level of uncertainty is not good for your game.

Like i say things are situational. If i am a short stack i will pass this hand. If i cover the SB 2-1 and he is a lag, i will let it go. If i have a 2-1 lead and he is a TAG i will play.
Logged

[19:44:40] Oracle: WE'RE ALL GOING ON A SPANISH HOLIDAY! TRIGGS STABLES SHIT!
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] Go Up Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.291 seconds with 20 queries.