Liverpool FC

[MANTIS01]

(Still, Dalglish shouldn't get any of the credit.  He's largely just using the players he inherited from Hodgson )

C'mon Kin, football management is horses for courses. Dalglish is clearly suited to managing Liverpool as anybody dubbed King by supporters would be. It is ridic to suggest the team is the same after a £50m+ change of front line personnel. And Suarez was the catalyst for everything good about Liverpool at the w/end. Also at the w-end we saw Roy's new side batter the Carling Cup winners with a well organised and professional display. WBA have a solid chance of staying up under an astute manager like Hodgson. Like I said horses for courses.

Also, the front line hasn't had a change of £50m+.  Think about it.

I have. And it has.

[kinboshi]

(Still, Dalglish shouldn't get any of the credit.  He's largely just using the players he inherited from Hodgson )

C'mon Kin, football management is horses for courses. Dalglish is clearly suited to managing Liverpool as anybody dubbed King by supporters would be. It is ridic to suggest the team is the same after a £50m+ change of front line personnel. And Suarez was the catalyst for everything good about Liverpool at the w/end. Also at the w-end we saw Roy's new side batter the Carling Cup winners with a well organised and professional display. WBA have a solid chance of staying up under an astute manager like Hodgson. Like I said horses for courses.

Also, the front line hasn't had a change of £50m+.  Think about it.

I have. And it has.

No, it clearly hasn't.

1.  Torres was sold.  For £50M.  So that means the forward line is immediately £50M DOWN.
2.  Add Suarez, £23M = now the forward line net spend = -£27M.
3.  Carroll hasn't played, except for less than 20 minutes yesterday, so he hasn't been in the available personnel.
4.  Even if Carroll had been playing, he cost £35M, and so the net spend would be £8M

So even if we include Carroll, the forward line personnel has had a £8m+ change.

Also, Suarez hasn't been available for every game either.

[boldie]

Sigh @ Mantis and Boshi being pedantic again.

Obv there has been a £50mill+ change. As you said yourself Kin..the change was 58mill total change. That doesn't mean that your net spend was £50mill+ but you changed 50mill+ worth of players, no?

Now stop arguing and get back to saying Kuyt is a complete and utter donkey please

[kinboshi]

Sigh @ Mantis and Boshi being pedantic again.

Obv there has been a £50mill+ change. As you said yourself Kin..the change was 58mill total change. That doesn't mean that your net spend was £50mill+ but you changed 50mill+ worth of players, no?

Now stop arguing and get back to saying Kuyt is a complete and utter donkey please

The difference in the style of play was before the transfers were made anyway, but the players Dalglish has had to pick from since he took over has actually been the same squad as Hodgson had, except for two or three matches?  In fact, Dalglish had less of a choice as some have been shipped out - but as they included Babel and Konchesky that's obviously not a bad thing.

It's laughable to suggest that the change in playing style from Hodgson to Dalglish is down solely (or to any significant degree) to the selling of Torres and the purchase of Suarez and Carroll.

(and if we're being pedantic, that would be a £100m worth change of forward personnel)

[boldie]

     @ that last bit

But of course Hodgson F'ed it up at Liverpool and Kenny is doing a much better job of letting the players play.

Not saying that this makes Kenny a good manager as I'm sure you would have done a better job than Roy

[kinboshi]

Everyone would have.  Except Merson.

[boldie]

Everyone would have.  Except Merson.

Yeah, don't think Mers did himself any favours with that one.

[MANTIS01]

It is deffo laughable to suggest that the change of playing style is solely down to the selling of Torres and the purchase of Suarez and Carroll. Who suggested that it was btw? But by the same token it’s laughable to suggest the impact of those changes have been negligible. Henry had a major decision to make about Hodgson as the window rolled around as to whether he would back the guy or not. That was a major decision, not a minor insignificant one. It’s major cos when you give a man £58m of your money to spend you need to be able to back him 100%. With the backing of the owner in place Dalglish was able to extract the negative influence of the highest profile misfiring player and reinvest a mind boggling sum of money in two hot prospects who abs want to make things happen for the club. Who created the breakthrough goal out of nothing on Sunday? If we are saying spending £58m has no real impact on a side why spend £58m? So of course it’s had a major impact in every which way including the mentality and excitement of everybody involved in the club. I have no doubt if Hodgson was given £58m to spend there would have been a major impact. Funny cos the Villa fans thought Houllier was abs tez but after he bought Bent for multai millions he was suddenly good. Funny what major spending buys you. The truth of the matter is a number of factors have contributed to the upswing and Dalglish is one of those factors.

 Also Kuyt is a donkey, but he’s a good donkey, and more than capable of bundling in chances when the no impact new guy puts them on a plate for him.

[kinboshi]

Until yesterday, Suarez had played two games of 90 minutes for Liverpool.  We lost one of those games, and drew the other.  The other game he played was 20-odd minutes against Stoke (when he scored).

Carroll hadn't kicked a ball for Liverpool until less than 20 minutes to go yesterday when we were already 3-0 up.


So yes, the signing of Suarez and Carroll has been negligible in terms of the changes in the way Liverpool have been playing since Dalglish took over from Hodgson.  Will they help going forward - undoubtedly.  Did they help yesterday - yes, Suarez did (Carroll didn't).

The money spent on Suarez and Carroll WILL make a big difference.  It is not responsible for the changing fortunes of the side since Dalglish took over from Hodgson (yesterday could be considered the first fruits of the new signings imo).

[MANTIS01]

So when you make new signings the only impact they can possibly have is during 90 mins on the field of play?

[kinboshi]

So when you make new signings the only impact they can possibly have is during 90 mins on the field of play?

No, I obviously don't.  Like I said the two most significant signings this season are Kenny Dalglish and Steve Clarke.    Both are past their best in terms of their playing days, but they've certainly made a huge difference at Liverpool already.

[MANTIS01]

OK, quick question to wrap up this mini debate Kin. Suarez and Carroll have done very little and are not really responsible for the upswing right? I give you the chance to swap them both right now for Fernando Torres who is proven to be able to bang in the goals for the reds. Do you want the swap? If not why not?

[kinboshi]

OK, quick question to wrap up this mini debate Kin. Suarez and Carroll have done very little and are not really responsible for the upswing right? I give you the chance to swap them both right now for Fernando Torres who is proven to be able to bang in the goals for the reds. Do you want the swap? If not why not?

Good question.

I'm going to say no.  Torres wasn't happy at Liverpool, and hadn't been for a year.  The broken promises were too much for him, and he wanted to move on to somewhere where he'd have more 'success'.  I think he made the wrong move at the wrong time - but that's his mistake imo.  It's a shame to lose him though, as he'd become a hero for the fans.

Torres at his best is an incredible player.  Unfortunately, we saw him far from his best through injuries and then what appeared to be a complete disinterest.  Will he get back to his best at Chelsea - that is another question.  I think he's a class footballer, so yes he'll start scoring again soon especially with the quality he's playing alongside there.  But whether he'll produce the form of the Torres from a few seasons ago - I don't know.

Liverpool managed to get £50M for Torres, which is a lot of money.  It buys you a Suarez and a Carroll.  Suarez is proven player who is already showing the signs of what he can do for Liverpool.  Carroll is an expensive gamble (for want of a better word).  He's shown a lot of ability in a short time period, but is still young, questionable temperament off the pitch, etc.  But the fact that he's 22 means that Liverpool can expect to recoup more from him over the 5 years of his contract or in sell-on fees.  So the gamble isn't as large as some would make out or it appears at first glance.

Also, with Suarez and Carroll you get two for the price of one.  An injured Torres was a disaster at times for Liverpool.  If either Carroll or Suarez are ever unavailable (in the future, they have both been unavailable until now), we still have options. So there are benefits there too.

I'd have to say that neither Hodgson or Dalglish had Torres at anywhere near his best.  Hodgson would have definitely had better results if he'd had him playing at his full potential for more games.

[MANTIS01]

Yah, exactly what I would have said as well mate. But what you're saying is you would swap one of the world's best players, proven goal getter for Liverpool, abs darling of the Kop, prolific strike rate for the club, a major major talent, world cup winner etc...for one guy who's played a couple of games for Liverpool (lost one drew one etc) and one who's played 20 mins for Liverpool and has potential. When you think about why you would make that amazing choice to reject Torres in favour of two new guys who have made a negligible contribution you will appreciate what I'm saying about impact that's not actually been on the pitch.

[kinboshi]

Yah, exactly what I would have said as well mate. But what you're saying is you would swap one of the world's best players, proven goal getter for Liverpool, abs darling of the Kop, prolific strike rate for the club, a major major talent, world cup winner etc...for one guy who's played a couple of games for Liverpool (lost one drew one etc) and one who's played 20 mins for Liverpool and has potential. When you think about why you would make that amazing choice to reject Torres in favour of two new guys who have made a negligible contribution you will appreciate what I'm saying about impact that's not actually been on the pitch.

Not sure I follow your logic, but OK.