Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[Royal Flush]

If you are a full time poker player there is nothing wrong with taking the odd shot at bigger events, once a month say with GPT's

Assuming you run at a profit, no.

That's why i said full time as opposed to 'professional' i am not referring to the hordes of truly awful poker players in this country who are labled big name pro's just because they play all the events, despite the fact they will all be long term losers.

I am thinking of the likes of JP/Moorman/Pab etc all +EV tournament players who make decent money from the game but don't have the rolls to play these games full time.

I think you are pretty much saying what I'm thinking James.

And if the likes of JP, Moorman & Pab can't afford the roll to play these mega-buck series - well, that says it all.

Sort of, i am saying they can afford to play them as part of an overall buyin strategy.

High volume mid stakes tournaments all the time with the monthly big buyin event, just doing the later would be criminal but as long as its balanced with tournaments well within your roll i see no problem taking shots at changing your life.

I share this view with a mutual friend who knows all about BR management, the one and only Mr Parker.

[ifm]

Ahh, but it was better in the olden days......

Come Friday, it will be 50 years to the day that an amazing football match took place.

The Valley was the venue, it was Charlton Athletic v Huddersfield Town.

Try & picture this.

Huddersfield Town were an amazing 5-1 up.

And their hapless, helpless, hopeless opponents, Charlton, were down to 10 men, due to an injury. (No subs in those days).

But Charlton, from 5-1 down, came back to win the game 7-6.

Fair enough. But can you even begin to imagine how Huddersfield's then Manager handled that result? His name was Bill Shankly. Oh to be a fly on that Dressing Room wall!

I was at Blues v Swindon Town a few years back, Hoddle was player manager for them and we had Terry Cooper.
Memory is a little hazy but we were 4-1 up with (i think) 20 minutes to go when Hoddle moved into the centre midfield spot from sweeper, from that moment on every time he got the ball he made a magnificent pass that ended up in our goal.
The final score was 4-6, it was horrendous!!
Quote of the decade from Cooper post match though.
When asked why he didn't get someone to manmark Hoddle as he was so majestic he replied.......
"i didn't think it would make any difference"

Wooot??
Moron!!

[tikay]

If you play Tourney Poker in Vegas, they take some shocking deductions from the Prize Pools.

Caesars Palace has a twice daily $65 Tourneys in which just 76% of the Prize Pool is paid out. The rest they keep.

Excalibur's twice daily $35 jobbies pay out only 71% of the Prize Pool.

Binions 71%.

Golden Nugget 70%.

Harrah's 75%.

Luxor, 70%.

And so on.....

Now in the UK, Prize Pools have always been sacrosant, & to a degree, that was because the GC said so. But now, it seems, Casinos appear to have have leeway to take money from the Players Prize Pool.

And, therefore, (& yes, I know it's history, & they've promised never to repeat the trick), the recent League at Luton, in which £24,000 was taken from the players - in some cases very much against their will - must never be allowed to be repeated ever again - anywhere.

If we stand for this sort of treatment, well, we only have ourselves to blame.

My point is this, really. Once they've (Casinos) have done it once - taken OUR money away - thers's no telling where it will all end, it's very much the thin end of the wedge.

You all have your own views on this, but I hope many will stand up & resist this sort of dilution of Prize Pools. Prize Pools are OURS, & no Casino on earth has any right to touch them. It may well be acceptable to the Yanks & tourists in Vegas, but not here, please God.

I don't for one moment suggest any malpractice by Luton G, for example. But do you know that they took £24,000 from us (& added £6,000 themselves), & yet there's not been a shred of "accountability" as to how that sum was arrived at? And yet everyone accepts it as fine & dandy......

Abd the structure for the Event, to which we, the players, contributed £24,000 (80% of the Total) was never given to us, although some players were privately nformed 24 hours before. That's despite us asking on numerous occasions.

Vote with your feet - as I should have done at Luton, I acknowledge. Once Casinos know they can get away with stealing money from the Prize Pools, there's no telling where it will end.

Don't say I never warned you. There was no hue & cry at Luton (& other places I've since heard), & once the dam has burst, it's gonna be a free-for-all.

I can't believe how daft & passive we poker players are not to organise ourselves to stop this sort of thing.

This Post is not anti-Luton, I adore the place, (& it's people) it's just warning folks - the door has been opened to Casinos stealing our money. Close it quick, ffs.

[77dave]

I agree completly with your post Tikay.

My question is how do you know that the amount raised by the players was £24,000. I was told about 5 varying amounts on Sunday. Anywhere from £22,000 up to £28,000.

Ok Luton says lesson learnt and they wont do it again but surely they still need to answer for this time. They have promised the players committee for the past 3 months to produce a breakdown of the contribution made by the players. Still we dont have it.

The structures and starting time of the comps changed on the day resulting in some players no having a chance to win there own money back.


Its all over and finished now and i doubt we will here too much more about it.  Luton is about to move on with new people and we will just have to see what the future holds.  All the people who were staying away because of the league will be back and the buzz will return to the place.

[Royal Flush]

If you play Tourney Poker in Vegas, they take some shocking deductions from the Prize Pools.

Caesars Palace has a twice daily $65 Tourneys in which just 76% of the Prize Pool is paid out. The rest they keep.

Excalibur's twice daily $35 jobbies pay out only 71% of the Prize Pool.

Binions 71%.

Golden Nugget 70%.

Harrah's 75%.

Luxor, 70%.

And so on.....

Now in the UK, Prize Pools have always been sacrosant, & to a degree, that was because the GC said so. But now, it seems, Casinos appear to have have leeway to take money from the Players Prize Pool.

And, therefore, (& yes, I know it's history, & they've promised never to repeat the trick), the recent League at Luton, in which £24,000 was taken from the players - in some cases very much against their will - must never be allowed to be repeated ever again - anywhere.

If we stand for this sort of treatment, well, we only have ourselves to blame.

My point is this, really. Once they've (Casinos) have done it once - taken OUR money away - thers's no telling where it will all end, it's very much the thin end of the wedge.

You all have your own views on this, but I hope many will stand up & resist this sort of dilution of Prize Pools. Prize Pools are OURS, & no Casino on earth has any right to touch them. It may well be acceptable to the Yanks & tourists in Vegas, but not here, please God.

I don't for one moment suggest any malpractice by Luton G, for example. But do you know that they took £24,000 from us (& added £6,000 themselves), & yet there's not been a shred of "accountability" as to how that sum was arrived at? And yet everyone accepts it as fine & dandy......

Abd the structure for the Event, to which we, the players, contributed £24,000 (80% of the Total) was never given to us, although some players were privately nformed 24 hours before. That's despite us asking on numerous occasions.

Vote with your feet - as I should have done at Luton, I acknowledge. Once Casinos know they can get away with stealing money from the Prize Pools, there's no telling where it will end.

Don't say I never warned you. There was no hue & cry at Luton (& other places I've since heard), & once the dam has burst, it's gonna be a free-for-all.

I can't believe how daft & passive we poker players are not to organise ourselves to stop this sort of thing.

This Post is not anti-Luton, I adore the place, (& it's people) it's just warning folks - the door has been opened to Casinos stealing our money. Close it quick, ffs.

The rendezvous league always works by taking 5% from the prizepools of some of the tournaments, and then they add a prize to first in the league playoff. No-one to my knowledge has ever complained there.....

Maybe its because the players in the Rendezvous pretty much are all locals where as in Luton you get people who often play elsewhere.

All i know is i am going tonight, will lose 5%, and i don't play enough to get into the final, but i don't mind really as it stays in the local pool and it still works out as less than 10% juice on the tournament (when you think of rebuys)

[M3boy]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I am not saying I agree with how it was organised (although roll on the next one! lol) , I am just putting a balanced argument on offer.

[77dave]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I am not saying I agree with how it was organised (although roll on the next one! lol) , I am just putting a balanced argument on offer.

Thats hardly a balanced arguement Paul   saying that a lot of the players didnt have a chance to win doesnt mean that the league was justified.
People like Ian Needleman, Dick Lynch and Jim McBride made lots of finals and prob lost the most out of the deal. All 3 were knocked out in the first round because they had to play a 2000 chip crap shoot to have a shot to win there own money back.

[celtic]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I am not saying I agree with how it was organised (although roll on the next one! lol) , I am just putting a balanced argument on offer.

Thanks for the name check Paul 

[Grier78]

In my mind everything should be down in black and white clearly explaining what happens to any money that is paid that does not form part of the main prize pool, with the exception of whatever the buy-in fee is which should be listed as seperate to the tourny entry.

[boldie]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I don't play at the casino in question as..well I stay a few hundred miles away but can't help but say that that is the most flawed arguement I have ever heard..almost bordering on offensive. (To me anyways)

What you are essentially saying here is that "crap players shouldn't complain"..that's just wrong on soo many levels.

[M3boy]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I am not saying I agree with how it was organised (although roll on the next one! lol) , I am just putting a balanced argument on offer.

Thats hardly a balanced arguement Paul   saying that a lot of the players didnt have a chance to win doesnt mean that the league was justified.
People like Ian Needleman, Dick Lynch and Jim McBride made lots of finals and prob lost the most out of the deal. All 3 were knocked out in the first round because they had to play a 2000 chip crap shoot to have a shot to win there own money back.

Jim, you have taken what I said the wrong way. I did not mean that they had no chance of winning the 30g league, I meant that alot of the people complaining abount the league contributions being taken from the prize pool would not have noticed in terms of winning anything in those comps (which had deductions made) as over the period of the 4 month deductions, most of them would be loosing players anyway. So most of the time they were contributing to the league, there "contribution" would go to someone else anyway.

Hopefully that makes better sense.

Yes the first round was a luckfest, but after the 1st round there was PLENTY of play. Trouble is that it was a 128 runner heads up comp that had to be over in one day so somewhere along the line it had to be a bit of a luckfest. I prefer that it was the 1st round and not the later rounds - where you could actually play a decent heads up game.

"balanced argument" was not the best choice of words - I actually meant "another point of view" . I honestly do not think you can have a balanced argument as I believe the deductions to have been wrong - and after making sure I qualified in the first period of qualification, I stayed away to a certain extent.

[M3boy]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I don't play at the casino in question as..well I stay a few hundred miles away but can't help but say that that is the most flawed arguement I have ever heard..almost bordering on offensive. (To me anyways)

What you are essentially saying here is that "crap players shouldn't complain"..that's just wrong on soo many levels.

Boldie - i am against the deductions, for my own reasons.

Of course "loosing players" have the right to complain - I never meant to suggest otherwise. Of course they have the right. But what they should of done was stay away and hense not contributed - instead of keep complaining and keep tunring up.

Its like putting your hand in a fire and getting burnt. You do not like the pain, yet you keep doing it.

God Im crap at explaining myself.

[boldie]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I don't play at the casino in question as..well I stay a few hundred miles away but can't help but say that that is the most flawed arguement I have ever heard..almost bordering on offensive. (To me anyways)

What you are essentially saying here is that "crap players shouldn't complain"..that's just wrong on soo many levels.

Boldie - i am against the deductions, for my own reasons.

Of course "loosing players" have the right to complain - I never meant to suggest otherwise. Of course they have the right. But what they should of done was stay away and hense not contributed - instead of keep complaining and keep tunring up.

Its like putting your hand in a fire and getting burnt. You do not like the pain, yet you keep doing it.

God Im crap at explaining myself.

I agree they should have stayed away....that's the tricky thing about your local poker tourney though..you tend to go back to the same place because it's what you know..casinos are like abusive relationships sometimes...and they take full advantage of this.

[TightEnd]

A losing arguer perhaps?

[M3boy]

Tony, lets face it - apart from a select few at Luton, the others are there to "contribute" to the prize pool anyway.

I would guess that most of the people complaining about the deductions in the 30G league had no chance of winning (over the 3 or 4 months it ran) so they infact lost nothing.

I am not saying I agree with how it was organised (although roll on the next one! lol) , I am just putting a balanced argument on offer.

Thats hardly a balanced arguement Paul   saying that a lot of the players didnt have a chance to win doesnt mean that the league was justified.
People like Ian Needleman, Dick Lynch and Jim McBride made lots of finals and prob lost the most out of the deal. All 3 were knocked out in the first round because they had to play a 2000 chip crap shoot to have a shot to win there own money back.

Jim, I agree that it cost some people more than others to qualify.

You could qualify (I think) in the last qualification period without it even costing you a penny in the lost deductions . ie you played every event and did not make one final - therefore the contributions taken did not affect you in anyway.

All I am saying, is I bet there are some of the people who are complaining (and kept turning up), that it cost them VERY LITTLE in lost "deductions" but still played in the tourney. It just stinks of double standards to me.

Then you have someone like TIKAY who was against the idea, and did NOT play.