Vegas & The Aftermath - Diary

[amcgrath1uk]

In a usual sense I would push it all in. However with the impending finish and chip count it is more sensible to take the guaranteed money. Whether long term its +ve or -ve isn't the issue, its the specific situation that he's in. I'd be taking the 2k and running in this situation

This is exactly the issue, poker players shouldn't pass up +EV situations to lock up money. It is correct, profitable decisions that matter in poker not pots or whats locked up.

Nice touch tho TK

The one thing to note here is that IF this was the usual final table structure, ie much more staggered towards 1st/2nd I would push every time. The point i'm making is that as there was an agreed payout structure ( which was quite different) and in THIS situation it would be more sensible to take the guaranteed money

[bobby1]

In a usual sense I would push it all in. However with the impending finish and chip count it is more sensible to take the guaranteed money. Whether long term its +ve or -ve isn't the issue, its the specific situation that he's in. I'd be taking the 2k and running in this situation

This is exactly the issue, poker players shouldn't pass up +EV situations to lock up money. It is correct, profitable decisions that matter in poker not pots or whats locked up.

Nice touch tho TK

The one thing to note here is that IF this was the usual final table structure, ie much more staggered towards 1st/2nd I would push every time. The point i'm making is that as there was an agreed payout structure ( which was quite different) and in THIS situation it would be more sensible to take the guaranteed money

thats is the diff in a nutshell, in a tourney with a normel payout structure i.e ridiculously top heavy then Its a push but in the payout structure they were playing with last night its a lot more complicated than auto push.

[RobS]

None of you have allowed in your maths for the chance that someone behind Tikay might call and then someone is knocked out resulting in Tikay laddering in the chip count

That's true but it makes an almost insignificant difference.

[RobS]

In a usual sense I would push it all in. However with the impending finish and chip count it is more sensible to take the guaranteed money. Whether long term its +ve or -ve isn't the issue, its the specific situation that he's in. I'd be taking the 2k and running in this situation

This is exactly the issue, poker players shouldn't pass up +EV situations to lock up money. It is correct, profitable decisions that matter in poker not pots or whats locked up.

Nice touch tho TK

The one thing to note here is that IF this was the usual final table structure, ie much more staggered towards 1st/2nd I would push every time. The point i'm making is that as there was an agreed payout structure ( which was quite different) and in THIS situation it would be more sensible to take the guaranteed money

If anything the fact there is a pending chipcount chop should encourage the shortest stacks to look for a good spot to double up, as chipcount chops give the biggest stacks more money than what their tournament equity actually is.

[tikay]

Thank you for all the comments on the AK thing. Looks like the concensus is that it's a Push, not a Fold. But I'm - so far - still happy that I made the right decision for ME.

amcgrath notes - correctly - that in a "normal" structured Final Table Payout, this would be an Auto-Push, & he is correct, I also stated that in my Post. It's particularly the case at Walsall, wwhere the Payouts are obscenely Top Heavy.

But this was a different scenario.

I will answer the other comments next.

[jezza777]

In a usual sense I would push it all in. However with the impending finish and chip count it is more sensible to take the guaranteed money. Whether long term its +ve or -ve isn't the issue, its the specific situation that he's in. I'd be taking the 2k and running in this situation

This is exactly the issue, poker players shouldn't pass up +EV situations to lock up money. It is correct, profitable decisions that matter in poker not pots or whats locked up.

Nice touch tho TK

But if you run out of money, you might not be able to play the next game, so you will miss many more + EV situations.

If someone gave you 6/4 on the toss of a coin for all the money you would ever have during your lifetime, could you take the chance?

This is why poker players have bankrolls.

At the end of the day it comes down to motivation to play, no one can say what the correct decision is for TK except himself.
The correct decision for a correctly rolled poker player is to push.  

[LLevan]

I cant for the life of me see why 8 players would want to try and play a crapshoot for 15 minutes when the most sensible solution would have been to do the chip count there and then with a limit of 15 minutes further play. Having said that if you decided to play on then the decision you made to pass was to me the correct decision given the circumstances as it appears that you had made your mind up to lock up £1900 and would have been more than happy to do the chip count without sitting down to the final 15 minutes play.

[gatso]

if people want to deal everyone has to agree
if people want a deal it has to be done to the formula

that way people dont feel harrased into making an unfair deal

Yes, that's the idea of it. The harassment in deal-making is horrendous at times, & leads to so much ill-feeling. Which is why I almost always "sit out" in these things.

I never know what to do in these circumstances - invariably I have to ask someone for guidance. I'm not sure if it's the heat of the game but I can't see the wood for the trees in these situations. Did a chop at Luton a few weeks ago between the last 4 and wasn't sure if it was a good deal - went to ask Tikay who, in unison with everyone else at the cash table, told me it was a great deal and to get back there before they changed their minds.

Does anyone have a guide as to when/what to do - I know it's got a million variables - but any basic ideas?

How do you work it out?

Im of the opinion that deals should only be discussed by the players still in the comp, this was the rule where I first started playing live and I like it.

So what rules would you apply when agreeing to a deal then?

This is covered very well either in the last few chapters of Harrington 2 or in one of McEvoys books (possibly Championship Tournament Poker) but I can't remember which. They give you a good way of calculating exactly what you should be asking for in a deal. I would dig it out for you but all my books are in another country at the moment.

[snoopy1239]

Thank you for all the comments on the AK thing. Looks like the concensus is that it's a Push, not a Fold. But I'm - so far - still happy that I made the right decision for ME.

Why is this the right decision for you?

[tikay]

In a usual sense I would push it all in. However with the impending finish and chip count it is more sensible to take the guaranteed money. Whether long term its +ve or -ve isn't the issue, its the specific situation that he's in. I'd be taking the 2k and running in this situation

This is exactly the issue, poker players shouldn't pass up +EV situations to lock up money. It is correct, profitable decisions that matter in poker not pots or whats locked up.

Nice touch tho TK

But if you run out of money, you might not be able to play the next game, so you will miss many more + EV situations.

If someone gave you 6/4 on the toss of a coin for all the money you would ever have during your lifetime, could you take the chance?

This is why poker players have bankrolls.

At the end of the day it comes down to motivation to play, no one can say what the correct decision is for TK except himself.
The correct decision for a correctly rolled poker player is to push.  

I agree. Conversely, these sort of decisions are also how poker players GET & MAINTAIN a healthy Bankroll. My Bankroll is healthy, & I want to keep it that way. No need to. Little cashes, often, suit me, & as it happens, suit my game, where I'm almost always a Final Table Shortie. And happy so to be. I often turn down the "big-buck" gamble in late stages if I think I'm nailed on for a minor cash. My Festival Database proves that, scores & scores of minor cashes and only a handful of wins. But in a "normal" Final, my chips are in like a shot, & win or lose, I'd be happy I made the correct decision.

[Ironside]

tikay on the AK thing what would you do in a cash game with AK in front of you and having to put in £130 to win £270 or a £400 pot

basically its the same execpt its 10x bigger so your calling £1300 to win £2700 or a £4000 pot

maths says call but management of bankroll is alot difference to the maths

[boldie]

maths says call but management of bankroll is alot difference to the maths

No it's not...really honestly it isn't.

Management of bankroll states that you HAVE TO make the call. You made the bankroll desicion when you sat down in the game and paid 300£ to play it. You manage the bankroll in the long term and the best way to manage your bankroll is to make the right poker desicion at the right time.

TK could afford to play the 300£ game (I assume so anyways) that was the only desicion he really had to make with regards to whether his bankroll could take it. What you have to do to manage the bankroll properly is to make the +EV play and that would be to get your chips in the middle here.

could you have lost the hand?..yes BUT it 's more likely that you would have won the hand. This desicion therefore is more likely to have cost you money than made you money..and at the end of the day..that's bad bankroll management.


This discussion is starting to do my head in..I understand the fold but it should be quite clear that it was the wrong thing to do for everybody (and that includes TK) unless they were playing with their very last money..and if he was he shouldn't have been playing it anyways.

[tikay]

OK, most of the questions can be answered in a general summary.

First up, as I don't look at my Hole Cards until it's "me to act", I only have, within reason, 30 seconds or so to work out what I'm gonna do here, & mathermatically, it was quite complex. Especially as I was tired, having been playing non-stop for nearly 11 hours. In such circumstances, my default setting is "don't make a £1k mistake".

Anyway, I had to consider this.....

a) Normally it's an Auto-Push. This was not "normally".

b) I had not actually considered the players to act behind me. I tend to make a snap, instant, decision, then try & find justification for it. I was almost certain to Pass that AK the moment I saw it. (After the Raise in front of me). I then tried to justify it to myself, but my gut feel was screaming PASS, because of the impending Chip Count.

c) I HAD considered before - & this was in my mind when the AK arrived - that one or two or three players may bust out, giving me a healthy ladder. One did bust out in fact - Roberto, & it cost him plenty of money. But he was playing for the win, I was playing for prudent financial lock-up.

d) I, & one or two others, had suggested it was a nonsense to play a 10 minute Final, & we should divvi it up on Chip-Count Rules there & then, but it was rejected by several.

e) £2k is a lot of money to me. Greed, (or "correct play") to grab an extra £2k, was over-ruled.

f) I know this will sound daft, but this is a lifestyle thing which transfers across to my poker, & I can't change my illogical stance on it. I had been card-dead most of the night. I'd found KK & flopped the set to kill my ooppo's hand, ditto JJ, I'd had A-Q v 9-9, missed the lot, but I got the pot because the Board came T-T-K-K-x, etc etc. In other words, I'd not been outdrawn, or unlucky, all night. In fact, I was lucky to even be in the Final, some might say. So lets not push my luck, as luck has a habit of turning when you least want it to. My experience with Stocks & Shares, & also in playing Roulette many years ago, was that hanging in for that one last big win almost always came up & bit me.

g) Had I acted BEFORE the other guy, I would DEFFO have pushed in. In late stages, deep-stacked shoves are, in my opinion, the way to play AK - but that logic assumes one's opponent has the ability, or hand, to Pass. Getting my chips in second with AK, when my oppo cannot Pass, is a different play altogether, & is, technically, (& imo) the wrong way to play AK in late stages. Get it in first, as half our equity is based on Matey Boy Passing. But usually, in this spot, be it right or wrong, I Push. That's always usually, except in circumstances like last night.

It's a glass half-empty or half-full thing. I got home at 0630, & took the £2k out of my pocket, & thought "phew, I was lucky there, it may have been £760 if I'd pushed with that AK". Others might say "damn, it could have been £4k if I'd pushed with that AK". It's one's personna transferring itself to how we play poker. Little & often is fine by me. Survival is all, though.

I agree with those who say that, technically, it was a wrong play. I do. But for ME, it was the correct play & at present, I have no regrets.

I know, I'm a wimp. But a bright wimp, that has survived in the game. Thank the Lord Flushy won't read this - now that IS a  lucky break!

[bobby1]

maths says call but management of bankroll is alot difference to the maths

No it's not...really honestly it isn't.

Management of bankroll states that you HAVE TO make the call. You made the bankroll desicion when you sat down in the game and paid 300£ to play it. You manage the bankroll in the long term and the best way to manage your bankroll is to make the right poker desicion at the right time.

TK could afford to play the 300£ game (I assume so anyways) that was the only desicion he really had to make with regards to whether his bankroll could take it. What you have to do to manage the bankroll properly is to make the +EV play and that would be to get your chips in the middle here.

could you have lost the hand?..yes BUT it 's more likely that you would have won the hand. This desicion therefore is more likely to have cost you money than made you money..and at the end of the day..that's bad bankroll management.


This discussion is starting to do my head in..I understand the fold but it should be quite clear that it was the wrong thing to do for everybody (and that includes TK) unless they were playing with their very last money..and if he was he shouldn't have been playing it anyways.

you make some good points Boldie but the decision is now do you wanna risk £1200 to win another £2100, so you have to decide if you found a potentially good 7/4 shot would you have £1200 on it if that was the ony bet you were allowed to have?

and the AK could easily be odds on to lose to a pair, and at best about 11/4 to beat a hand like AQ or AJ and of course a huge dog against AA and KK.

[boldie]

maths says call but management of bankroll is alot difference to the maths

No it's not...really honestly it isn't.

Management of bankroll states that you HAVE TO make the call. You made the bankroll desicion when you sat down in the game and paid 300£ to play it. You manage the bankroll in the long term and the best way to manage your bankroll is to make the right poker desicion at the right time.

TK could afford to play the 300£ game (I assume so anyways) that was the only desicion he really had to make with regards to whether his bankroll could take it. What you have to do to manage the bankroll properly is to make the +EV play and that would be to get your chips in the middle here.

could you have lost the hand?..yes BUT it 's more likely that you would have won the hand. This desicion therefore is more likely to have cost you money than made you money..and at the end of the day..that's bad bankroll management.


This discussion is starting to do my head in..I understand the fold but it should be quite clear that it was the wrong thing to do for everybody (and that includes TK) unless they were playing with their very last money..and if he was he shouldn't have been playing it anyways.

you make some good points Boldie but the decision is now do you wanna risk £1200 to win another £2100, so you have to decide if you found a potentially good 7/4 shot would you have £1200 on it if that was the ony bet you were allowed to have?

and the AK could easily be odds on to lose to a pair, and at best about 11/4 to beat a hand like AQ or AJ and of course a huge dog against AA and KK.

So in a normal tourney you would fold AK here if there was a payout difference that meant you would risk 1200 to win 2100?