Tremendous Bluff? Or Not?

[bobby1]

ARRRGH!! THE EFFECTIVE STACKS IN THIS HAND ARE LESS THAN 10 BBS!! LIMPING UTG FOR MORE THAN 10% OF YOUR STACK WHEN YOU ARE NOT DELIGHTED TO GET IT IN NO MATTER WHAT IS RETARDED. LIMPING FOR ONE EIGHT OF YOUR STACK TO TRY AND SEE A FLOP WHEN YOU THINK UTG LIMPED A STRONG HAND IS RETARDED.

TALK OF TELLS AND LIVE POKER AND DIGGING YOURSELF OUT OF HOLES BY SEEING FLOPS FROM A LESS THAN 10 BB STACK AND THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION IS UNBELIEVABLY OUT OF THIS WORLD RETARDED.

what a shame.

[MANTIS01]

TAG's, LAG's, Maniacs, Rocks, Calling-Stations, etc etc....

If there is a Holy Grail of poker strategy then why do so many different people approach the game in so many different ways?

Take a look at religion, the biggest cause of conflict in the history of mankind....Why?

Because if two people passionately believe in two different Gods then they will gladly kill each other over a fact they can never prove. One feels threatened by the others passion in their own beliefs because at the end of the day there can only be one true God right? Bit ridiculous really.

Passionate poker players seem to follow this trait when debating the game they love. But in reality there isn't a fool proof method of play that guarantees results. That's the only real fact in the game...although maths guys will protest otherwise (please see paragraph above).

I do think Lloyd raises some convincing arguments with his retard post though...especially considering capitals were used to really hammer that message home.

What a great thread.

[tikay]

Guys, this is a terrific debate, thanks to all of you, but lets go easy on the name-calling. That's never gioing to win any debate, & this is a terrific thread & debate. Mantis & Totalise & Lucky Lloyd & so many others have given us much to think about, but just because some hold differing views on what is the way forward, there's really no need or justification to descend into profanities & name-calling. How on earth does that further the excelllent debate?

Thanks.

[totalise]

If there is a Holy Grail of poker strategy then why do so many different people approach the game in so many different ways?

because some people like to win and some people dont care about winning. There are many different ways to play the game profitably, and there are many ways to play it unprofitably. The "holy grail " is one of expectation.. there are many ways to play the game with a positive expectation.

Take a look at religion, the biggest cause of conflict in the history of mankind....Why?

Because if two people passionately believe in two different Gods then they will gladly kill each other over a fact they can never prove. One feels threatened by the others passion in their own beliefs because at the end of the day there can only be one true God right? Bit ridiculous really.

Passionate poker players seem to follow this trait when debating the game they love. But in reality there isn't a fool proof method of play that guarantees results. That's the only real fact in the game...although maths guys will protest otherwise (please see paragraph above).

I do think Lloyd raises some convincing arguments with his retard post though...especially considering capitals were used to really hammer that message home.

Wait, you have just used a stupid religion analogy in a thread about a hand of poker, and you are mocking someone elses attempt to give a convincing argument?

[M3boy]

Yes, lets stop the name calling please - i do feel somewhat responsible - and I'm fragile enough as it is.

With our stack sizes and the action preflop (and seeing the flop) one of us SHOULD of doubled up - NONE of us should EVER escaped away after this flop.

Leknave COULD of been ahead, ie I have a flush draw or smaller pair or just trying to nick it - so to answer my own question, I do not consider what LeKnave did to be a bad play.

I should of NEVER folded.

That is my honest take on the situation.

I still maintain that limping with my stack at this stage is not a terrible play, as pushing with 7xBB or 8xBB does not affect my F/E. I was trying a high gamble play WITHOUT risking my tourney life in a spot where I considered it would work.

Pushing preflop (as it turns out) woud of worked better for me - but that is results orientated.

Great debate and some good points of view put foward - but thats what they are , points of view.

I consider this situation that there is no right or wrong in limping here, just different views.

Aint Poker great?

Remember, keep it civil please guys . TY

[MANTIS01]

Why would you ever back any horse other than the favourite because the favourite will win most of the time...that's why it is the favourite

No totalise, I am making a point about people. How this is considered stupid is anyone's guess. Also I never mock people, but if Lloyd feels mocked then I will withdraw my comment about the capital letters.

[M3boy]

TALK OF TELLS AND LIVE POKER AND DIGGING YOURSELF OUT OF HOLES BY SEEING FLOPS FROM A LESS THAN 10 BB STACK AND THIS WHOLE DISCUSSION IS UNBELIEVABLY OUT OF THIS WORLD RETARDED.

Lloyd - most of the points you have raised have been valid ones imo.

Except the above.

I am more than happy to see flops with 10xBB stack. Although 10xBB is short stacked I agree, I do not feel under pressure to commit my tourney life.

I would like to hear others views on this. What is your cut off point where you look to shove preflop ?

[totalise]

Why would you ever back any horse other than the favourite because the favourite will win most of the time...that's why it is the favourite

No totalise, I am making a point about people. How this is considered stupid is anyone's guess. Also I never mock people, but if Lloyd feels mocked then I will withdraw my comment about the capital letters.

comparing the "odds" of a horse race is nothing to do with the odds of a hand of poker, for pretty obvious reasons.

what I am sure of is that no winning professional gambler will take a £20,000 betting roll, put £1000 on a horse at 5/1 even though its true odds are 20/1, and justify it by saying "if I win this, I can spin up this £5k into a nice big sum, and £1k out of £20k isn't *that* much"

[doubleup]

I would like to hear others views on this. What is your cut off point where you look to shove preflop ?

The point I was making is that I think this depends on your hand-reading and ppl reading abilities.  For me I go more less into push fold at 12-15 (I dont actually push but I'm not folding to a rr).  I think this is big failing in my tourny game and do think that if you can successfully find a way of seeing flops rather than going into push/fold as long as possible you will have a greater ev.

[MANTIS01]

I know plenty of professional gamblers who go through the card having lost only to choose a value outsider in the last because the price is right for their current situation.

However, anyone who holds the view that the long term solution is the answer to each and every short term problem is certainly entitled to that opinion.

[Norwich Fan]

i dont usually comment, but feel i have to here, only read page 1 of the replies, but this is UNBELIEVABLY bad from op.
its shows a complete and utter lack of knowledge of tourney poker.

u are being offered 6/1 on the call,,,,,,,,and have only 4 bbs if u fold here.
u have made a standard bet from the button to take the pot,
first villian can easily think a mid pp is good.
second, villain can easily have a draw. (fd is out there)
thirdly, u usually have 5 outs here when behind, this gives u a 4/1 chance to win the hand, u are being offered 6/1, if villian SHOWS u AA here, its an insta call.
EVEN if u are dominated, and have 3 outs, u are just over 7/1 to win the pot........again given the relative chips positions vis a vis winning the tourney, if u are SHOWN AJ, its still prolly a marginal call.

Lastly, limping along here with JT is this position, given the relative stack sizes and utg limp is absolutely shocking poker.

[BigCityBanker]

Some general questions.

With the exception of Lloyd and Robbie can the players who have comented on this thread who are making their way to Waterford for the BigSlick event please identify themselves - Im lead to believe that a number of you are coming over?

Secondly, and with reference to my first question above, do you guys play cash games?

Thirdly, do you play cash games online? If so, site and sn please.

[Bongo]

I know plenty of professional gamblers who go through the card having lost only to choose a value outsider in the last because the price is right for their current situation.

However, anyone who holds the view that the long term solution is the answer to each and every short term problem is certainly entitled to that opinion.

Isn't the key word there value, i.e. +ev?

[M3boy]

i dont usually comment, but feel i have to here, only read page 1 of the replies, but this is UNBELIEVABLY bad from op.
its shows a complete and utter lack of knowledge of tourney poker.

u are being offered 6/1 on the call,,,,,,,,and have only 4 bbs if u fold here.
u have made a standard bet from the button to take the pot,
first villian can easily think a mid pp is good.
second, villain can easily have a draw. (fd is out there)
thirdly, u usually have 5 outs here when behind, this gives u a 4/1 chance to win the hand, u are being offered 6/1, if villian SHOWS u AA here, its an insta call.
EVEN if u are dominated, and have 3 outs, u are just over 7/1 to win the pot........again given the relative chips positions vis a vis winning the tourney, if u are SHOWN AJ, its still prolly a marginal call.

Lastly, limping along here with JT is this position, given the relative stack sizes and utg limp is absolutely shocking poker.

If you had bothered to read the whole thread, you will find that I have said most of that already. 3 outs if I am doninated? I think you mean 2 outs (ie he has a set) - 3 outs if I hit runner runner FH is true.

But thanks for repeating it.

[TheChipPrince]

Can we all agree in 3 bullet points what we should learn from this thread?